Point by Point

Subject: Re: Kathryn/Trimm/Bet-din
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:51:18 -0500
From: purnhrt <purnhrt@flash.net>
To: Grafted-In Ministries <billnjok@olypen.com>
BCC: schmuel@bigfoot.com
References: 1 , 2 , 3
 
 
 

Shalom b'YHWH
Bill and Jo, while I appreciate that you said you were going to investigate this matter, which by the way, I
did not drag anyone into, but asked, how does it help me if you make a public statement that you have
investigated it and make quotes of things I have not said, nor do you quote what I did say. Then you
make charges against me that I am a liar, based on misinformation and false quotes? Why would you not
even answer my questions as to your sources for the misquotes that you listed? You made conclusions
and accusations, calling me a liar based on these statements, yet I am telling you that I did not make
those quotes and you dont have the decency to site where you think they came from, nor who the
"witnesses" are, nor where you state those two statements are in Thorah, that you base that I am deficient
in. The least you could have done was to write or call if you had any questions or were confused by
anything you thought I said. But these misquotes are huge and I cannot even see where you
misunderstood something. What concerns me the most, is that after doing this and posting your
conclusions, you say that you will not debate or argue this issue. Do you expect me to sit here while you
call me a liar, repeatedly, and do nothing about it?

Now, you may not want to debate or answer my questions, but I will show you what you misquoted and
you do with it what you will, but you will never be able to honestly say that you did not know. And all
this is taken from my website, which you say you investigated.

I will show you what I did say, which is in contradiction to what you posted that I said, and then said I
was a liar based on your false quotes. But first, I would like to point out, I have the Scriptures, from
numerous translations and several languages. No where does it say in Thorah to, "(1) she has an
OBLIGATION to believe the best of her brothers and sisters even when their actions make you wonder "
or "(2) She has an obligation to never bring a brother or sister to public shame." .  You can not list verses,
because they dont exist. But I can show you example upon example, of where YHWH brought matters to
light and made them public, because the people that committed various sins, did not repent.

Lets begin with Adam and Chawwah; or Cham for his sin against his father; or how about Yahudah lying
with his daughter in law, thinking that she was a prostitute; or the sin of Yahusefs brothers being made
public, as they stood before Yahusef as Faraoh's second in command; or Miryam's contention being made
public and she is striken with leprosy; Qorach, Dathan and Abiyram's rebellion being made public;
Zimri's adulterous sin with the Midyanith woman, Qozbiy, being made public when Fiynchas drove a
spear through them both; Akan's theft being revealed by lot; Shemuel having to be told by YHWH that
Shaul had sinned and Shemuel having to publically rebuke him and finish what YHWH said to do;
Nathan having to reveal Dawiyds adultery and murder; as well as the incident of the census; Amnon's
rape being made public; because of Dawiyds partiality in the matters of Thorah, Tamars brother avenges
her and kills Amnon, which then leads to Abshaloms exile only to turn into a rebellion and as YHWH
said, what Dawiyd did in secret to another mans wife, one close to Dawiyd would do in broad daylight
before all Yisrael to Dawiyds wives; Achab's murder of Nabaoth was revealed and made public;
Yisrael's, as a nation, sins were not hidden, but brought to light and made public; and if you want to deal
with the "NT", Herods sin of marrying his brothers wife, while he was still alive was made public;
ChananYahu and Shafiyrah's lie about the cost of a sale of property was revealed in public; and there are
more of examples where Shaul wrote letters and warned of some, by name, like Demas, Mark and
Alexander, who were not being righteous, including publically rebuking Kefa. Kefa, himself wrote and
said to be on your guard and Yahuchanan says to test the ruachoth. I could go on and on, but these are
the ones right off the top of my head. So I ask you again, where are those verses in Thorah?
----------------------------------------------------
 

You list six charges, that you say summarized as you understood them.
It was not fraud for various e-mail forums, as Rabbi Yosef that was the charge.
The very first charge, which is right there on the main page, and repeated over and over, in e-mails to the
Beit Din as well, is this, "The first slander accusation was to Sandra Hawkins, for stating that he posted as
Rabbi Yosef, advocating the Book of Mormon, on the nazarene egroups listserver."

1. On the Initial Situation Page http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/initialsituationpage.html,
"Situation at the forum:

James Trimm sat there and watched people bad mouth and insult Sandra Hawkins, at the nazarene list,

calling her a lunatic, an ignoramous, a slanderer, etc, when all he had to do was be honest and admit that

he posted as Rabbi Yosef. Instead, he not only allowed this action to continue, but when asked directly if

he was Rabbi Yosef, he sidestepped the direct question and said that he was setting the record straight,

that  he did not and had not advocated the Book of Mormon. This led people to believe that he was denying that  he was Rabbi Yosef and some continued their attack on Sandra Hawkins."

This is just a sample of what Sandra was called and accused of concerning her statement that James was
Rabbi Yosef.
                 "This proves nothing.  Any noodnick with a computer could've written
                 what you put up there.  You've supplied no headers, no routing info,
                 *NOTHING* to substantiate your claim that Dr. Trimm is this "Rabbi
                 Yosef."

                 Put up or shut up, madame.  Or I will do everything in my power to
                 see that no ISP will give you service ever again.  Your type is a menace
                 to us all. "

Here is a longer post, one of several, where James denies this statement.
http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/p39777jt.htm

2. Here are some of the first statements I made to the forum and the Beit Din.
"
I do not care one way or the other about the Book of Mormon. I dont care
if James Trimm wants to go by Rabbi Yosef or any other name, for that

matter. But if he posts information about Mormonism and the Book of

Mormon by one name and then as James Trimm comes down on Sandra or

anyone else for expressing similar views, and then when they state that

Trimm and Rabbi Yosef are one and the same, and she is called a liar and

kicked off the forum and now she and her husband are facing being kicked

out of their congregation, that is a whole different matter. In this

case truth is a matter of justice, not just he said , she said.
"

3. "  Now, these proofs have been presented. Sandra Hawkins is not a liar,
   she did not slander. James Trimm avoided answering but by sidestepping

   and saying that he does not advocate the BoM or Mormonism, yet he has

   written and advocated them as Rabbi Yosef and Yosef Liahon.

   I believe an apology is due Sandra Hawkins, especially from James
   Trimm, the Beit Din, and  Adam Bernay. And if this is not enough

   evidence, I am compiling more, not from the forum.
"

4. "Whatever he chooses to be proactive about, that is his to decide, but if he is slandering people about
it, or playing two sides of the fence, telling each side different versions, and that involves lies, well, lying

is a problem for me. So is slandering."

Now this is just a sampling, that shows that the original charge was that he lied about being Rabbi Yosef
advocating the BoM and having people slander Sandra Hawkins for saying that he was, as well as calling
her a liar as well. I also said several times that I did not care if James poated as Rabbi Yosef. It was his
lying and slander of Sandra that was the original problem, and that she and her husband were owed a
public apology for the public lies and slander against her. That still stands and that is something that I
have repeatedly stated was due them, over and over and over. And here are some of those examples:

1. In an e-mail to James I wrote http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/rejtreconciliation.html,
"I am not spoiling my name. You did that by falsely calling me a hardcore

anti-semite, a liar, in league with anti-semites, a slanderer, etc. What I am

doing is stating the truth. I know that truth to you is lashon hara, when you

choose it to be, but the slander originated with you. First against Sandra

Hawkins in the matter of Rabbi Yosef, and second, when I posted the evidence.

You have not taken responsibility for your lashon hara, true lashon hara. You

misuse that phrase and make the principle look bad by your hypocrisy.
"

2. http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/my3rdreplymd.html
"I at first believed that Sandra was due an apology for the slander against

her for the statements that James Trimm was Rabbi Yosef adovocating the BoM. I no longer believe this. I

believe that Sandra and Michael Hawkins are due an apology for much more and a reversal of the Beit

Din decision against them.
"

3. http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/my4threplymd.html
"I dont see these as separate, but connected. My initial involvement was to point to the truth of a false

accusation against Sandra Hawkins, that James Trimm did post as Rabbi Yosef. THe second, that as Rabbi

Yosef, he did advocate the BoM. At that point, James began lying about me to discredit me and thereby

discredit the evidence or make a distraction to a more volatile subject - anti-semitism. THe accusations to

me are not just specifically to me, but are a repeated pattern of James Trimms character. The first time

James accused me of being an anti-semite, was when I questioned his behavior in smearing two men, not

having had the decency to call or write them as a brother in YHWH, to see if there were

misunderstandings first. He said he didnt have to. So on two occasions when I have confronted him about

his behavior, he turns to attack, rather than repent. Michael, they are not separate, but rather connected."

4. http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/my5threplymd.html
"I said in my first post that Sandra was owed a public apology at that

forum for the slander against her when she stated that James Trimm was

Rabbi Yosef. I stated that again in my e-mail to the Beit Din asking

them to investigate this matter. I stated it again when you asked what

grievances I had and I listed them all out, but this time, having

investigated the situation, I have seen that an apology to Sandra is not

enough. Mike is also due one and the ruling needs to be dropped.
"

"Now I can see why you would like to separate the two issues, the Hawkins
situation and the slander and lies against me. But I dont agree. My

involvement began when I defended a lie against Sandra, which needs to

be repented of publicly, since the lies and slander were public. Then

James involved me further when he started lying and slandering me. He

involved me even further by stating to me more charges against Sandra,

as you did as well. To make such statements, you need to have proof.

None has been provided, as I stated earlier. But there is proof at the

forum, in numerous posts, which I have copied, that Sandra and Mike were

unjustly tried and charged, not to mention slandered. I have copied all

these posts and am prepared to make an update to the website, involving

the status of the Hawkins situation. Many people have asked the

question, since James Trimm has proved to be false in this matter. I

have written to Michael Hawkins and he has given me permission to

address this issue, so that their names will be cleared.
"

5. http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/myreplyfalseapol.html
"I told you before what my demands were and I will tell you again; I want a full

apology and complete retraction of ALL the lies and slander spoken against me,

posted to the forum and to all your lists. I want an apology, due the Hawkins and

a dropping of the unjust ruling against them, made by the Beit Din. You do not

seem to understand the seriousness of this situation."

6. http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/myreplyjtdialogue.html
"I want shalom and I have been trying every avenue possible in order to get it.

If you are truly being genuine in this, it is not a difficult thing to write an

apology for all the lies and slander you spoke against me and make the

retractions at your forum and everyone that you sent it to. If, on the other

hand, this is not genuine and there is another motive, then that will only make

matters worse. I have also mentioned from the very first post that I made, that

an apology was due the Hawkins for the slander saying that they slandered and

lied about this matter. That also needs to be made right.  And the Beit Din

ruling against them dropped. I hope that you act righteously in this matter.

Shalom, Kathryn "
 

7. My first Plea to the Assembly e-mail on 7-14-2000
"I dont care if James Trimm wants to believe in the Book of Mormon, as a Jewish document. What I care

about, is his denying it and slandering a woman who stated he was Rabbi Yosef and under that name,

does advocate it. What I care about is when evidence was provided, instead of taking responsibility and

apologizing, he purges forums with the evidence and then tries to explain his purpose at these forums as

research. What I care about, is his attack on my name, slandering me, accusing me of being an anti-semite,

to discredit me and the evidence. What I care about is the fact a man can make horrible, slanderous

accusations and not once apply his law of lashon hara to himself, but when someone posts the truth, for

the purposes of defense, he states lies and yells lashon hara.
"

8. E-mail to Assembly on 7-17-2000, Not Know James Trimm?
"As to exchanging Lashon Hara, he is the only one slandering. I have

simply stated the truth to defend his slander. First involving Sandra

Hawkins, then when he said I was a hardcore anti-semite, liar, etc.

Stating a truth to defend an untruth is not Lashon Hara, it is Thorah.

YHWH does not honor slander. Mishley 6:16-19, " These six YHWH hates,

and seven are hateful to His nafesh. Proud eyes, a lying tongue, and

hands shedding innocent blood. A heart devising plans of wickedness,

feet hurrying to run to evil.  A false witness who breathes out lies,

and one sending out strife between brothers."  Shalom, Kathryn"

And again, there are more cases. But I think that is sufficient to prove that 1. I was not making the charge
of fraud in connection with Rabbi Yosef, but that it was slander and lying about his being Rabbi Yosef
and what he advocated about the BoM.
 

Next is listed, "The second source of slander is that which James Trimm committed against me, Kathryn
Olenick, to discredit my evidence and me as the source, calling me a hard core anti-semite, etc., in a mass
mailing that he sent, to who knows how many people. "

Several of the above quotes also mention the anti-semite and lying slanders.

This e-mail is to the Beit Din, after James made the anti-semite and liar lies. It goes point by point of what
is in his revised e-mail that he lies and claims is the original.
http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/finalbeitdinem.htm

This page was set up to refute those lies in greater detail, showing whole posts of the situation.
http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/revletandsecslander.html

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/   Almost half way down. (Now located at the bottom of http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/revletandsecslander.html )
"As to the slander of myself, I have proven that James lied about the exact copy of his revised letter. He

lied about saying that I "claimed" to have received an e-mail from him, admitting that he was Rabbi Yosef and had participated at numerous forums, under various names. He lied about my being kicked off his

forum,  my posting material from Chris Lingle. He lied about my not being able to post because my old e-mail address was blocked. He lied saying that I supported Dan Chaputs book, Christianity Unmasqued. He lied saying that I attacked SANJ. He lied that I was a hard core anti-semite that believes that the Jews are the unredeemable seed of Satan. He lied that I was in league with anti-semites."

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/myreplytosteve.html
"Steve, may I ask, where was the concern for lashon hara when Sandra and Michael Hawkins were being

slandered? Where was the concern for lashon hara, when I posted the truth of a matter, which was

requested, in defence of a slander accusation? Where was the concern for lashon hara when James Trimm

accused me of being a hardcore anti-semite, a liar, in league with anti-semites, etc.? Where was the

concern when James made another post to his list, insinuating that I was a liar in saying I did not know

"him", but then later saying I did? All of his accusations I have refutted and proven they were false.
"

Here is an e-mail, in which Michael Detwiler asked for me to list of the charges for specific lies, that I said
James had made against me, which I listed for him.

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/my3rdreplymd.html
This is a list of my original charges against James Trimm, which you did not even mention or site. These

are the first charges. The rest are as a result of what James Trimm said to excuse these lies and slanders.

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/myreplyabsurdsug.html
"Where is his righteousness? Chananyah and Shafiyrah did not have the chances to

tell the truth that James has had. And they just lied about the price of some land

they sold. James has lied and slandered me, knowingly and repeatedly. As I told

you, James and the Beit Din, there can be no shalom without that full apology and

the retractions. He is the one who lied and slandered, he should be the one to

compose the apology and retraction. Shalom, Kathryn
"

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/myreplynoblood.html
"All I have ever asked for is a complete apology and a

total retraction of the lies spoken against me. That an apology was due the Hawkins

and a dismissal of the unsubstantiated ruling against the Hawkins, by the Beit Din.

Which you and James brought to my attention. THis situation has not been made right

either, and needs to. Shalom, Kathryn
"

Plea to the Assembly Update 8-2-2000
"As I see it, not only has he refused to repent, to apologize and make retractions, but he is continuing his

attack. He called someone yesterday and said that he was going to write an article on how he does not

believe in the BoM, which is contrary to what he has written under several names and at several forum

including the nazarene, and that he was going to write another on anti-semitism. These articles will be his

continued effort to blow smoke and try to hide his lies and slander. No matter what avenue I have

attempted, despite my lack of trust of James Trimm, I have tried, numerous times to see this situation

made right, by righteousness. Without that, there can be no shalom. This type of behavior should not be

acceptable in the Beyth YHWH and most certainly among those in leadership."

You wrote, "We have found that the pseudonym in and of itself does not constitute fraud anymore than
does Kathryn's pseudonym of tatorah or our occasional one of unworthy2die4.  Pseudonyms and even
aliases are expected; even encouraged under some circumstances on the web."

First, Tahorah was not a name I used, it was an e-mail address. I only used my middle name Lynette
once, when I orignally posted, for it to go through. After that time, I have always used Kathryn and even
stated why I used and that I had used Lynette. Anytime I have used that tahorah@netscape.com address,
in replying to someone at a one of the e-groups forums, I have always signed my name as Kathryn.

Second, as I stated earlier, it was not his use of the name that was the problem, it was when he was
identified by someone, that he lied and slandered the person for doing so. Then when he purged the
forums that he started under that name, bom-messianic, bom-archaeology, jewishbom, m-kabbalah and
one other that I cant remember right now, to get rid of the evidence, then I became concerned with the
content of what he posted there. That is when I found the archives of the Mormon site that he was at
under James Trimm, Rabbi Yosef and Yosef Liahona, and that he did advocate the BoM, which was
another lie of his.

You wrote, "Kathryn was informed by James' Bet-Din that they found no fault with his actions and for her
to say that they did not investigate the charge is a lie and she owes restitution to James Trimm."

At no time did the Beit Din inform me that they found no fault with James Trimm. What I stated was that
when I sent the first three e-mails to the Beit Din, asking them to investigate these matters, that they did
not and did not even answer me.

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/
" I have taken this situation to the Beit Din, which he is a member of. The first time to let them know

of the initial evidence, the second time to let them know of his purging evidence from the net and his

letter of admittance and the final time, when he began slandering me, to discredit me as a source of the

evidence. I have given them every opportunity to act righteously in this matter. They have not even responded to me. Since no apology or retraction was made, I am bringing these matters to the Edah of YHWH, for judgement."
 

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/revletandsecslander.html
"I did not receive one response from the Beit Din members or Friends of the Court. An apology was not

issued, nor a retraction of statements. Since my request for an investigation into the sladerous accusations

was not done, I am taking this matter to the Assembly of the Believers of YHWH you.
"

On 7-9-2000, I sent my final e-mail to the Beit Din members, letting them know that if they did not
respond to this last one, that I was taking this matter to the Beyth. They did not answer that one either, so
I did take the matter to the Beyth. I did not lie about their not answering me or checking into this.

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/
"I submitted all this to the Beit Din that he says he is accountable to and no investigation was done. No

apology or retraction was posted or mailed. So I have appealed to the larger assembly of believers.
"

The next time I contact the Beit Din members, is on 7-25-2000, to ask them if they told James to post the
Six-step method to "wean" Mormons off the BoM. This was the first time I received a reply from them.
Steve Heiliczer replied, Luana Fabry replied and then finally Michael Detwiler replied.

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/myreplytosteve.html
"As I have stated before, I am not committing lashon hara, yet James Trimm has, and much more. I

appealed to this Beit Din several times, in this matter and no one responded or investigated this

situation."

Steve replied, "Second, there IS concern about the things you have claimed, and it is being looked into. "
Steve was not looking into it. THere was a woman named Shirah, that e-mailed me about my site. She is a
student of James Trimm's yeshiva and even wrote that she had a vested interest in getting this taken care
of. She said that she was close friends with Steve and that she would talk to him about this. Then she
e-mailed again and said that she would get all the information on my site copied and put together, to
present to him. I suggest that he just look at the site, since it was complete documents and it was all in
chronological order. But Steve had not done this and Shirah had not given him the information by the
time that I was replying to Steve. "That someone compiling for you has not even read my site, as of a
week ago, by her own statements. I also told her that my site is laid out chronologically and is simpler to
read there, than a multitude of printed out copies. I do not see the logic in all that, when it is right there
on the net. Nor am I willing to wait months for a full apology and retraction of horrendous lies that went
out in minutes. The longer it takes, the more he says and does, the more that is brought to light."

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/lastreplytosteve.html
"I gave James and this Beit Din, every opportunity to deal with this when it first occurred. No one forced

James to lie and slander. He could have apologized at any time. But when he increased his lies and

posted them to his list, when the Beit Din refused to acknowledge a single one of my e-mails, I took the matter to the Beyth YHWH, which I told you I would do, if I did not hear from you. As to a website, it is no

different than a public forum on the net. YOu do not seem to be too concerned about the lies and slander on that site.
"
"I did bring all of this to your Beit Din, even though I do not accept your authority, simply because James

Trimm said he was accountable to you. I brought it to you not once, but three times. YOu were also

included in the mailings to the Beyth YHWH and the rebuttal to James Trimm's last assault. At what

point  were you going to let me know that you were investigating? Not one of you answered my Beit Din

e-mails. Perhaps you thought it too insignificant to even send a reponse. "As I said, it is  being looked into.  The fact that there are reams of stuff to look through doesn't make it any easier.  And pushing the Beit Din

won't help either." The "reams" increase everytime James makes another false accusation. If I waited for

the Beit Din to investigate this in their own time, I would be sitting here like Sandra and Mike Hawkins,

being falsely accused, with people believeing the lies. It has been 7 months now, for them. I will not wait

that long. I am not pushing the Beit Din. I  gave you  my evidence, it is yours to do with as you please,

but I told you before, I am not dependent on your for my justification. I have taken it to the Beyth YHWH

for a decision, since the Beit Din was not addressing the matter. Every day that goes by and every person

that James has sent those lies to, is another person that I have to reach with the truth.
"
 

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/myreplymd6steps.html
"Shalom b'YHWH

Michael, I listed the false accusations in the e-mail to the Beit Din. Did none

of you even read it? Steve asked the same thing. I do not understand what is

going on with y'all. Do situations such as this not matter? Steve just sent a

response that he votes for dismissal, this case is closed. I see. I was correct

in my not trusting my vindication to the hand of this Beit Din. Very well. My

vindication lies in the Hand of YHWH and I will continue presenting it to the

Beyth for judgement. I am sorry that this group did not do the righteous thing

and investigate this and see to it that apologies and retractions were made.

Shalom, Kathryn
"

http://home.flash.net/~purnhrt/truth/my2ndreplymd.html
"I do have a question and I would like you to answer me honestly. You and Steve have

both asked me to list out what my grievances are. I have told both of you that I

did that in my last e-mail to the Beit Din. Asking if you guys have even read it.

You ask me again, in this e-mail. Did y'all (or you) read them? Or did you just

delete them and thats why you need a list? "

This question was not answered by Steve or Michael and I had to rewrite out a list of James lies and
slander, which had incresed by this time, since everytime he sent something out, he lied in it. Nor do they
deny not answering my first e-mails or investigating this, before I took it to the Beyth. I did not lie when I
stated that they did not answer me or check into this.
 

Since this e-mail has gotten so long, and I have only address two of your statements, I am sending this to
you and will address the others this evening. I suggest that you might want to re-investigate this and see
what I really said, before you make a public conclusion, such as the one that you made, misquoting me. I
have all the information at my site and can easily refute these statements. If James Trimm makes your
conclusions known, which he has done with everyone elses statements to support him, I will have no
other choice but to make my rebuttal known and it is not my desire to make you look like you did a poor
job, but the evidence will speak for itself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 

--
YHWH bless you and guard you. YHWH make His face to shine upon you and show you favor. YHWH
lift up His face upon you and give you shalom.