IsraeLight forum post 1148

This post has been deleted from James Trimm's forum

               From: James Trimm  <jstrimm@h...>
               Date: Thu Aug 10, 2000 10:15am
               Subject: Re: Subject: Beit Netzarim Yeshiva Fall Semester

               Since this matter of slander is moving into a legal phase I am not going to
               say much beyond what I write here:

               > What a pleasure it  is to have you join our forum.
               >In light of the  above excerpt from your post,
               >I am compelled to ask you to respond to the recent  evidence
               >of your participation in Book of Mormon forums.
               > The information  we all received and viewed shows conclusively
               > that you have participated in such  forums,
               >promoting the Jewishness of the Book of Mormon,
               >albeit under a  pseudonym.

               The false claim made is that every post made on the internet regardless of
               email address
               can be conclusively traced by way of the DNS numbers.  This is not true.
               DNS numbers are a set of four numbers of up to three digets each.  Each set
               of 3 digits is refered to as an
               "octet".  It carries a value of 0 through 255 - giving a total of 256
               possibilities or 8 bits of data.  There are currently 4 octets in an IP
               address.  The first two octets being the same is not suprising,  it only
               shows that two users are using the same ISP.  Even if a third octet
               matches,  then this would only show that they were both dialing into the
               same POP
               (Point of Presence).  With most services the DNS numbers are recirculated.
               A given user is assigned a new set of DNS numbers every time they dial up.
               After they hang up someone else is assigned those same numbers.  SO even a
               match of four octets does not prove that two emails came from the same
               person.  In this case the claim is being made that by matching only TWO
               octets one can trace an email to a single user.  In reality matching two
               only narrows a user down to within 65,000 people that are on the net at any
               given time,
               but since most ISP's recirculate these DNS numbers that number can actually
               range MUCH higher.

               I am not the poster of every message that comes from my ISP.

               >Because the information was presented to the Messianic body
               >as  a last resort, we have all, unfortunately,
               >been recruited as jurors in  regard to this matter.
               >I am not  interested in defaming you, nor does anyone here
               > wish to jump to any conclusions  about the matter.
               >However, your loud silence implies that you are without  a defense.

               Actually it was presented at a time when I was not a member here, as an act
               of slander and Lashon Hara.

               How can you say "nor does anyone here wish to jump to any conclusions
               about the matter" when you just said that the evidence was "shown
               and you are about to go on to say that I have a burden to "prove" my

               You have not been "recruited as jurors" you have been the victom of slandar
               and Lashon Hara.

               In fact the issue was delt with by the International Nazarene Beit Din and
               dismissed after it was investigated.

               >  The evidence,  while rudimentary in it's presentation,
               >nevertheless implies that you are a  double minded man in our midst.
               > In any trial a  defendant is afforded the right to defend himself.
               >If he wishes to  prove his innocence he presents whatever evidence
               > he has to exonerate  himself.

               I had no idea that I had any obligation to PROVE my INNOCENCE to you.
               I had no idea that I was on trial.

               > I implore you, Mr. Trimm, will you please tell  us if you have a defense?
               > You really need to address the most seriously damning  evidence;
               > the posts you made under pseudonyms, which unequivocally promote
               > the Book Of Mormon;
               >your initial denial and subsequent refutation
               >that you  participated in such forums;

               I have NEVER denied participating in such forums.

               Regarding the Book of Mormon, I do NOT hold a belief that the Book of
               Mormon is true.  As an accademic with an interest in comparitive theology I
               have had many objective and or interpretive discusions about the Quran and
               the Book of Mormon on various Muslim and Mormon lists over the years.  This
               often involved discussions about what the Quran or the Book of Mormon
               teaches or what a certain passage means.   I have also used the Quran and
               the Book of Mormon as tools to reach Muslims and Mormons and other Book of
               Mormon believers with Torah and Messiah using a "for arguments sake" type
               approach.  I am pleased to say that through this approach I have helped
               bring a number of Mormons and other Book of Mormon believers to Torah and
               Messiah.  I can however see how a person might wrongly understand some of
               that material as implying that I believe the Book of Mormon is true or that
               I believe the Quran is true.  Let me make this clear, while I CAN see how
               someone might have misunderstood,  I do NOT hold a belief that the Book of
               Mormon is true.  And I do NOT hold a belief that the Quran is true.

               I have stated repeatedly that I do not advocate the Book of Mormon.

               I have serious problems with a number of things that are IN the Book of Mormon:

                       *  Certain passages at least appear to be anti-nomian:

                       " must keep the performances
                       and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled
                       which was given to Moses."
                       - 2Nephi 25:30 (supposedly between 559 & 545 BC)
                       (see also Alma 30:3)

                       "...but I say to you, that the time shall come
                       when it shall no more be expedient
                       to keep the law of Moses."
                       - Mosiah 13:27 (sopposedly in 148 BC)

                       "...the law in me is fulfilled,
                       for I have come to fulfil the law;
                       therefore it has an end."
                       - 3Nephi 15:5 (supposedly quoying "Jesus")

                       [right after the coming of "Christ"]
                       "And they did not walk anymore after the performances
                       and ordinances of the law of Moses..."
                       - 4Nephi 1:12

                       "...the law of circumcision is done away in me."
                       - Moroni 8:8 (supposedly quoting "Jesus")

                       *  The book seems to depict traditional Christian practices
                        such as Communion [not Passover?] (3Nephi 20:1-9)

                       * The Book of Mormon calls the followers of the religion
                       it depicts "Christians" supposedly as early as 73 BC
                       (Alma 46:13-16).

                       * The BoM people supposedly came to the New World
                       and kept the law of Moses (2Ne. 25:24; Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 2:3;
                       Alma 30:3; 34:14) they supposedly built a Temple "after
                       the manner of Solomon" (2Ne. 5:16) and made offerings
                       (1Ne. 5:9; 7:22; Mosiah 2:3) Now how could a group of all
                       Josephites (1Ne. 15:12; 19:24; 2Ne. 3:2-5; Jacob 2:5 & Alma 26:36)
                       do that without any Levites?  Maybe thay just did it theselves
                       (1Nephi 2:7) and appointed non-Levites as priests (2Ne. 5:26;
                       Jacob 1:18) but then who would say that a group of Josephites
                       who built their own Temple, performed their own offerrings
                       and appointed their own non-Levitical priests...

                               "...did observe to keep the judgements,
                               and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord
                               IN ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES"
                               (2Ne. 5:10)?

                       Even IF the Lord had told them to do such things would
                       it not be WAY beyond the realm of truth to say that
                       they were done "according to the law of Moses"?

                       *  Also why would a group which kept the law of Moses
                       in all things build various Temples in various locations:

                               * "The Land of Nephi" (2Ne. 5:8, 16)

                               * "The Land of Zarahemla (Mosiah 1:18)

                               * "the Land Bountiful" (3Nephi 11:1)

                       And much of this time overlaps The Second Temple Era.
                       Compare Deut 12:21; 16:16 which teaches only one Temple
                       in one chosen place.  How does that work?

                       *  While the book is longer than the NT and is largely narative
                       it never mentions a Jewish/Biblical holiday by name.  It also
                       never mentions a newmoon convocation, Nazarite vow etc.
                       This is suspicious.

                       *  Although its people supposedly kept the Law of Moses until
                       the time of "Christ" the book places the death of "Christ"
                       on the "the first month, on the fourth day" (3Ne. 8:5)
                       though this day would have been Passover, the 14th day
                       of the month on the Biblical/Jewish calendar.  In fact
                       Passover roughly coresponds with the full moon and would
                       be within a day of the 15th (on a newmoon based calendar)
                       or a day of the 1st (on any Fullmoon based calendar) So not only
                       is this supposed "BoM calendar" not the Biblical newmoon calendar
                       it could not even be a lunar calendar at all.

               >the questionable origins of your PhD.;

               There is nothing questionable about it.
               It is NOT a PhD it is an STD (SACRAE THEOLOGAE DOCTOR)

               It has recently been suggested that my doctorate comes from a diploma mill.

               This is just plain not true.

               My doctorate is from St. John Chrysostom Theological Seminary

               St. John Chrysostom
               Theological Seminary

               An Ecumenical Seminary
               the Catholic Apostolic Church
               in North America

               Which is the authentic representative
               of The "Igreja Catolica Apostolica Brasileira"
               (the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil)

               The Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil has over 5 million members
               worldwide.  It is the largest Catholic communion, not under Papal Jurisdiction.
               It split off from the Roman Catholic Church on July 6th 1945.
               This split was due to objection to the relationship
               between the Nazis and the Roman Church especially regarding
               the helping of Nazis to escape Germany to hide in South America.

               St. John Chrysostom Theological Seminary was established in 1973
               by the canons (authorities) of the Catholic Apostolic Church
               in North America.  The institution's original name was "Saint Charles
               College" but was changed in 1983 to "St. John Chrysostom
               Theological Seminary."

               Like many small religious schools and seminaries St. John Chrysostom
               Theological Seminary is non-accredited and operates under the Ecclesiastical
               approbation of the canons and constitutions of the Church.  This is mostly
               due to the cost of becoming accredited.

               However St. John Chrysostom Theological Seminary is NOT a "diploma mill".
               Its degree programs are among the most demanding I have ever seen.

               I was awarded the degee doctor by this seminary on June 7th 1995.

               Moreover my degree was earned.  It was NOT awarded as an honorary degree.
               I have a certified transcript with real credit hours.  The school also requires
               three letters of recomendation from persons who have doctorates in the field
               of religion in order to be awarded the degree of doctor.  My degree required
               real credit hours, as well as three such recomendations.  It was NOT the
               of a diploma mill.

               >  and your complete silence in the matter.

               I stated at the onset that I would not get into a Lashon Hara contest with
               this woman.

               Why do you seek to drag me into one?

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                    Message 1148 of 1355