IsraeLight forum, post 1279

This post has been deleted from James Trimm's forum.

               From: James Trimm  <jstrimm@h...>
               Date: Sun Aug 13, 2000 9:52am
               Subject: Concerning BoM Slander

               Apart from the issue of DNS numbers (which I have already dealt with) and
               in light of some recent slander I feel that it needs to be made clear that
               I absolutely do NOT hold a belief that the Book of Mormon is true.

               The BoM quotes and paraphrases many phrases, verses, concepts and even
               whole chapters from the Bible.  In fact as much as half or more of the BoM
               actually closlely parallels passages in the Bible.

               As a result there is much Biblical truth in the BoM.  These are Biblical
               truths that first appeared in the Bible.

               Now regardless of whether or not the BoM is true or not there is
               none-the-less a great deal of truth in the BoM.

               If one takes a Hebraic-Roots approach to these Biblical truths that appear
               in the BoM one is able teach these truths to Mormons from a "Jewish
               Perspective" and thus deal with what could be called "Jewishness" in/of the
               BoM.  This "Jewishness" is simply the result of aplying a Hebraic-Roots
               approach and a Jewish perspective to Biblical truths that appear in the BoM.
               These Biblical truths appear because the BoM quotes and paraphrases many
               phrases, verses, concepts and even whole chapters from the Bible.

               Now because of the fact that the BoM contains Biblical truth, it can be
               very useful in reaching Mormons with these Biblical truths.  And by
               applying a Jewish/Hebraic-roots perspective on these Biblical truths one
               can effectively reach Mormons with both Torah and Messiah.

               Christian ministries have used this type of approach for years in
               attempting to reach Mormons with Orthodox Christianity.  One tract
               published by Personal Freedom Outreach says:

                       Anyone visited by a Mormon Missionary has heard
                       the Elder's testimony concerning the Book of Mormon:
                       That he knows this book is the Word of God
                       and that the founder of the Mormon Church,
                       Joseph Smith, Jr., translated it by the gift and power of God.
                        Further, the prospect is encouraged sincerely
                       to study the Book of Mormon and "The divine truths
                       it contains."

                       The Book of Mormon indeed does contain a number of
                       "divine truths", first set forth in the Bible,...

                       [the author then lists six of these]

                       Much of the major theology set forth in the Book of Mormon
                        is indeed in harmony with orthodox Christianity.
                       However, many who are visited by the LDS Missionaries
                       are unaware that the present theology of the Mormon Church
                       is very different from their own Book of Mormon. ...
                        Mormon theology is not contained in,
                       but rather contradicted by the Book of Mormon....

                       The presence of "Divine Truths" within the Book of Mormon
                       is merely a result of Joseph Smith, Jr. incorporating
                       much of the Bible into his work. (see 'The use of the Bible
                       in the Book of Mormon by H. Michael Marquardt).
                       - DIVINE TRUTHS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON


               There are a number of Christian tracts and ministries that have taken this
               same approach
               to disprove Mormon theology and teach Orthodox Christian theology to
               Mormons using the divine truths in their Book of Mormon.

               For example the tract THOSE PLAIN AND PRECIOUS THINGS from Saints Alive:


               and an article called:  Joseph Smith vs. the Book of Mormon By Gary F. Zeolla


               There is another I have which is also called  Joseph Smith vs. the Book of
               but was authored by Bill McKeever and published by Mormonism Research Ministry;
               Box 20705; El Cajon, CA 92021-0955 but I have not found it on the net.

               So it occurred to me that I could adapt this same approach to
               Messianic/Nazarene Judaism.
               By taking a Hebraic-Roots Jewish approach to these "divine truths" in the
               Book of Mormon
               I could actually reach Mormons with real Torah based divine truth USING
               THEIR OWN BOOK!

               This approach becomes very important because  Mormons put more stock in the
               Book of Mormon than in the Bible.  As a Saints Alive tract correctly states:

                       "I (Joseph Smith) told the Brethren that
                       the Book of Mormon was the most correct
                       of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion,
                       and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts,
                       than by any other book."
                       (History of the Church, Volume 4, Page 461)

                       It is the LDS concept that the Bible is the Word of God
                       as far as it is translated correctly, that is,
                       what is left of the Bible after many Plain and Precious
                       Things were removed by the great and abominable church.
                        The Mormon also "knows" that the Book of Mormon
                       is the Word of God. It did not have many
                       Plain and Precious Things removed. It did not
                       suffer at the hands of many translations.
                       (Those Plain and Precious Things tract- Saints Alive)

               This tract goes on to show that the many unique Mormon doctrines do NOT
               appear in the Book of Mormon which actually teaches against them.  The
               tract continues further down:

                        1 Nephi 13:26-36 says that the "great and abominable church"
                       (verse 26) took away from the gospel many parts and covenants
                       which were Plain and Precious, in order to pervert the ways of the
                       and blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the people.
                       The Bible was corrupted because of this (verse 28). What were
                       some of those Plain and Precious Things? Are these those that
                       separate Mormonism from the Christianity that grew out of the past?
                       Are these not the law of eternal progression, salvation,
                       baptism for the dead, the nature of God, temples, and polygamy?
                       The Lord God (Elohim) promised that a day would come
                       when these things will be restored (verse 32) after the Gentiles
                       stumble about because of this act of the "mother of harlots"
                       taking the most Plain and Precious Things of the Gospel
                       of the Lamb (verse 34).   The Lamb of God (Jesus) says exactly
                       how this restoration of all the Plain and Precious Things
                       will come about. In verse 35 He says He will manifest Himself
                       to the Seed of Nephi and they shall write many things all
                       the precious things taken away by that church and even
                       after they (your seed) are all gone. These things shall be
                       hidden up to come forth unto the Gentiles. Verse 36 says,
                       "And in them shall be written my gospel., saith the Lamb,
                       and my rock (word "rock" refers to the gospel' see D&C 11:24)
                       and my salvation."  Therefore, the Plain and Precious Things
                       taken away by the great and abominable church must be restored
                       in the Book of Mormon. This is verified by Latter-day
                       revelations also:

                       "For in them are all things written concerning
                       the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock." (D&C 18:4)
                       "And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet
                       thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing
                       of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and
                       the Word of God." (D&C 19:26) "And gave him power from on high,
                       by the means which were before prepared, to translate
                       the Book of Mormon; which contains a record of a fallen people,
                       and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles
                       and to the Jews also." (D&C 20:8&9) "And again, the elders,
                        priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles
                       of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon,
                       in the which is the fulness of the gospel." (D&C 42:12)

                       What are the things contained in the fulness of the gospel,
                       the Book of Mormon, which are lost, hidden and not contained
                       in the Bible?  By the Word of God, they must be in the Book
                       of Mormon. Where are these teaching of Mormonism?
                       The critical doctrines that separate Mormonism from
                       the Christianity that was debased for the loss of "many
                       Plain and Precious Things" from its scriptures by the
                       "great and abominable church" are listed here:

                       [the author then lists several unique Mormon doctrines]

                       The Book of Mormon is the "Stick of Joseph."
                       Either these doctrines must be found in the Book of Mormon
                       or Mormonism is subject to the words of Jesus in
                       His judgement of 3 Nephi 27:11; Alma 13:20; 2 Nephi 28:15;
                       2 Nephi 28:16, 21-24, 25.

                        Not only can these things not be found in the Book of Mormon,
                       but the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED
                        TO SOME OF THESE "LDS ONLY" DOCTRINES! ...

               The Author goes on to list several examples.  Note also that this Christian
               author [Saints Alive founder Ed Decker?] takes a "for arguments sake" type
               aproach.  (In fact in this and many similar Christian writings the authors,
               in taking this approach say many things that could be quoted out of context
               so as to imply that they believe the BoM is true.)

               Ok so suppose someone were to adapt this same method to teach the biblical
               truths of Torah Observant Messianic/Nazarene Judaism to Mormons?

               Suppose this person made himself a total expert on the Book of Mormon.
               Suppose this person joined Mormon lists under pseudonymns and used this
               method.  Suppose this person used the BoM to teach "biblical truths" from a
               Jewish/Hebraic-Roots perspective to Mormons.  Suppose this went on for
               years.  Suppose it was a very fruitful ministry.  Not a money making
               effort, for it could never generate money.  A ministry conducted solely for
               the purpose of bringing Mormons to Torah and Messiah and not for any
               financial gain.

               Now suppose a vindictive person wanted to SLANDER this man.  That person
               could easily quote this man out of context.  Since this man was
               role-playing for years with Mormons using this method one could easily
               quote whole e-mails that would wrongly imply that this man believed the BoM
               is true.

               Regarding the Book of Mormon, I do NOT hold a belief that the Book of
               Mormon is true.  As an accademic with an interest in comparitive theology I
               have had many objective and or interpretive discusions about the Quran and
               the Book of Mormon on various Muslim and Mormon lists over the years.  This
               often involved discussions about what the Quran or the Book of Mormon
               teaches or what a certain passage means.   I have also used the Quran and
               the Book of Mormon as tools to reach Muslims and Mormons and other Book of
               Mormon believers with Torah and Messiah using a "for arguments sake" type
               approach.  I am pleased to say that through this approach I have helped
               bring a number of Mormons and other Book of Mormon believers to Torah and
               Messiah.  I can however see how a person might wrongly understand some of
               that material as implying that I believe the Book of Mormon is true or that
               I believe the Quran is true.  Let me make this clear, while I CAN see how
               someone might have misunderstood,  I do NOT hold a belief that the Book of
               Mormon is true.  And I do NOT hold a belief that the Quran is true.

               I have stated repeatedly that I do not advocate the Book of Mormon.

               I have serious problems with a number of things that are IN the Book of Mormon:

                       *  Certain passages at least appear to be anti-nomian:

                       " must keep the performances
                       and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled
                       which was given to Moses."
                       - 2Nephi 25:30 (supposedly between 559 & 545 BC)
                       (see also Alma 30:3)

                       "...but I say to you, that the time shall come
                       when it shall no more be expedient
                       to keep the law of Moses."
                       - Mosiah 13:27 (sopposedly in 148 BC)

                       "...the law in me is fulfilled,
                       for I have come to fulfil the law;
                       therefore it has an end."
                       - 3Nephi 15:5 (supposedly quoying "Jesus")

                       [right after the coming of "Christ"]
                       "And they did not walk anymore after the performances
                       and ordinances of the law of Moses..."
                       - 4Nephi 1:12

                       "...the law of circumcision is done away in me."
                       - Moroni 8:8 (supposedly quoting "Jesus")

                       *  The book seems to depict traditional Christian practices
                        such as Communion [not Passover?] (3Nephi 20:1-9)

                       * The Book of Mormon calls the followers of the religion
                       it depicts "Christians" supposedly as early as 73 BC
                       (Alma 46:13-16).

                       * The BoM people supposedly came to the New World
                       and kept the law of Moses (2Ne. 25:24; Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 2:3;
                       Alma 30:3; 34:14) they supposedly built a Temple "after
                       the manner of Solomon" (2Ne. 5:16) and made offerings
                       (1Ne. 5:9; 7:22; Mosiah 2:3) Now how could a group of all
                       Josephites (1Ne. 15:12; 19:24; 2Ne. 3:2-5; Jacob 2:5 & Alma 26:36)
                       do that without any Levites?  Maybe thay just did it theselves
                       (1Nephi 2:7) and appointed non-Levites as priests (2Ne. 5:26;
                       Jacob 1:18) but then who would say that a group of Josephites
                       who built their own Temple, performed their own offerrings
                       and appointed their own non-Levitical priests...

                               "...did observe to keep the judgements,
                               and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord
                               IN ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES"
                               (2Ne. 5:10)?

                       Even IF the Lord had told them to do such things would
                       it not be WAY beyond the realm of truth to say that
                       they were done "according to the law of Moses"?

                       *  Also why would a group which kept the law of Moses
                       in all things build various Temples in various locations:

                               * "The Land of Nephi" (2Ne. 5:8, 16)

                               * "The Land of Zarahemla (Mosiah 1:18)

                               * "the Land Bountiful" (3Nephi 11:1)

                       And much of this time overlaps The Second Temple Era.
                       Compare Deut 12:21; 16:16 which teaches only one Temple
                       in one chosen place.  How does that work?

                       *  While the book is longer than the NT and is largely narative
                       it never mentions a Jewish/Biblical holiday by name.  It also
                       never mentions a newmoon convocation, Nazarite vow etc.
                       This is suspicious.

                       *  Although its people supposedly kept the Law of Moses until
                       the time of "Christ" the book places the death of "Christ"
                       on the "the first month, on the fourth day" (3Ne. 8:5)
                       though this day would have been Passover, the 14th day
                       of the month on the Biblical/Jewish calendar.  In fact
                       Passover roughly coresponds with the full moon and would
                       be within a day of the 15th (on a newmoon based calendar)
                       or a day of the 1st (on any Fullmoon based calendar) So not only
                       is this supposed "BoM calendar" not the Biblical newmoon calendar
                       it could not even be a lunar calendar at all.

               James Trimm

               Study Torah with SANJ Mitvah Club