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  Message 1704 of 5357  |  Previous | Next  [ Up Thread ] Message Index
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From:  "Bert, Troy" <tbert01@s...>
Date:  Mon Aug 14, 2000  2:03 pm
Subject:  Hidden Agendas


Although I'm not opposed to anyone formulating an agenda of issues in their
back pocket for which they espouse or cling to, I certainly would have to
raise an eyebrow of skepticism when those agendas are hidden or are
deceptive in nature. In my posts, for example, I have been upfront in my
objective of accomplishing Zion by focusing upon its requirements(One Heart,
One Mind, etc). However, recently discussions on this list have been
focussed upon the Torah as being the correct law which should be the basis
for our faith. These posts have been introduced by a member of the list by
the name of James Trimm. As information has been recently brought to my
attention, and henceforth posted in the body of this message, I feel it
vital to bring it to the attention of those who are on this list, as I feel
that you are being targeted by Mr. Trimm by his posts. The text of an email
message which was sent by Mr. Trimm on another list server, is included
below. The content of the message is focussed upon "weening" Mormons away
from Mormonism, and the calculated process in which this is to be
accomplished most effectively. The post clearly defines the process to
include the use of the Book of Mormon toward the end of proving the Torah to
be the preferred law, and ultimately discarding the BofM in the end. You
will also notice the denial of Jesus Christas Lord and Savior, calling
Christianity Pagan. I'm sure you will find this post to be very
interesting, in understanding the tactics which are currently being used on
this list by Mr. Trimm to bring about this hidden agenda. I feel that it is
my duty to submit to you this information, as a believer in Jesus Christ,
and a fellow believer in the Book of Mormon. Please read this information
carefully, and if you so choose, use all manner of caution in the future in
discerning the truth in this matter.

Your brother in Christ,

Troy Bert

PS. Message from James Trimm appears below.

Copied from the Nazarene archives--
s : nazarene Messages :Message 39957 of 40086</A>
Message 39957 of 40086
From: James Trimm <jstrimm@h...>
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:18am
Subject: Six Step Approach to Mormons

Six Steps to Approaching Mormons with Nazarene Judaism:

NOTE: Mormons and other "restorationists" as they call themselves
generally put more faith in the Book of Mormon than the Bible. While they
teach that many things were editted out of the Bible and changed, they
claim that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth. Therefore
it can be helpful in the initial stages to establish many points from the
Book of Mormon "for arguments sake" prior to weaning them off of the Book
of Mormon. This is similar to the approch to Moslems that initially uses
the Quran to establish certain points. However since Mormons are
Christians or at least para-Christians we still use a variation of the five
step approach.

PHASE ONE: PASSIVE "getting your foot in the door"


In this step you show them that Hebraic Roots really illuminate the meaning
behind many NT passages. (Zola Levitt kind of stuff) For example:

* the material in the Jewish New Testament Commentary
relating to the Sukkot event of Yochanan 7 & 8.

* The rope through the eye of a needle.

* The Messiah in the biblical/Jewish feasts.

At this point do not present anything doctrinaly challenging to Christendom
& Mormonism.

RESOURCES: Most Hebraic Roots material out there.

BoM prooftext: 2Nephi 25:5


In this phase you will demonstrate how the Hebraic roots of the NT were
lost as the faith became gentilized. The grafted branches were not being
fed by the root. Still no need to doctrinally challenge Christendom. You
may talk about how Passover surplanted Easter but unless asked you need not

directly condemn Easter YET.

BoM prooftext: 1Ne. 13:21-29


In this phase you will show how the original branches become grafted back
in. Jews come to Messiah in the last days and restore the Hebraic roots.
Still no need to doctrinally challenge Christendom. Just take the attitude
of "isn't it nice that we have all of this illumination now."

BoM prooftext: 2Nephi 25:5


At this point review what you have covered so far but recharacterize the
"gentilization" and the loss of the Hebraic roots as an apostasy (falling

4. FREEDOM IN TORAH - Now you will introduce a single doctrinal casualty
of the apostasy. You will show that Christendom has recast the Torah as
bondage and Torahlessness as freedom. You will show them that the Torah is

freedom, truth, light etc. and that the Torah is for today. You will
expose the false teaching of ANOMOS = Torahlessness.

MESSIAH VOLUME ONE by Avi ben Mordechai

BoM prooftext: 1Nephi 17:25 (in combination with the above resources)
3Nephi 16:7 ("truth" = Torah Ps. 119:142, 151, 160)
Use Avi's "definition system" outlined in Messiah Volume 1 to define words
like "truth" and "light" etc.

step unless you have
completed the first four steps successfully. In this step you will
expose the other "Torahless" Jesus of Christianity and identify the great
Whore Babylon etc..

RESOURCES: My papers on the thunders; material on Pagan Christendom on ant and THE TWO BABYLONS by Hislop.

an extention of step
five to some extent. Using the test of a prophet found in the Torah
(Deut. 13 & 18) along with the problems with the Book of Mormon (and other
problems with Joseph Smith's other prophetic materials) you may now wean
them off of the Book of Mormon.

* Certain passages at least appear to be anti-nomian:

" must keep the performances
and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled
which was given to Moses."
- 2Nephi 25:30 (supposedly between 559 & 545 BC)
(see also Alma 30:3)

"...but I say to you, that the time shall come
when it shall no more be expedient
to keep the law of Moses."
- Mosiah 13:27 (supposedly in 148 BC)

"...the law in me is fulfilled,
for I have come to fulfil the law;
therefore it has an end."
- 3Nephi 15:5 (supposedly quoting "Jesus")

[right after the coming of "Christ"]
"And they did not walk anymore after the performances
and ordinances of the law of Moses..."
- 4Nephi 1:12

"...the law of circumcision is done away in me."
- Moroni 8:8 (supposedly quoting "Jesus")

* The book seems to depict traditional Christian practices
such as Communion [not Passover?] (3Nephi 20:1-9)

* The Book of Mormon calls the followers of the religion
it depicts "Christians" supposedly as early as 73 BC
(Alma 46:13-16).

* The BoM people supposedly came to the New World
and kept the law of Moses (2Ne. 25:24; Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 2:3;
Alma 30:3; 34:14) they supposedly built a Temple "after
the manner of Solomon" (2Ne. 5:16) and made offerings
(1Ne. 5:9; 7:22; Mosiah 2:3) Now how could a group of all
Josephites (1Ne. 15:12; 19:24; 2Ne. 3:2-5; Jacob 2:5 & Alma 26:36)
do that without any Levites? Maybe thay just did it themselves
(1Nephi 2:7) and appointed non-Levites as priests (2Ne. 5:26;
Jacob 1:18) but then who would say that a group of Josephites
who built their own Temple, performed their own offerrings
and appointed their own non-Levitical priests...

"...did observe to keep the judgements,
and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord
(2Ne. 5:10)?

Even IF the Lord had told them to do such things would
it not be WAY beyond the realm of truth to say that
they were done "according to the law of Moses"?

* Also why would a group which kept the law of Moses
in all things build various Temples in various locations:

* "The Land of Nephi" (2Ne. 5:8, 16)

* "The Land of Zarahemla (Mosiah 1:18)

* "the Land Bountiful" (3Nephi 11:1)

And much of this time overlaps The Second Temple Era.
Compare Deut 12:21; 16:16 which teaches only one Temple
in one chosen place. How does that work?

* While the book is longer than the NT and is largely narative
it never mentions a Jewish/Biblical holiday by name. It also
never mentions a newmoon convocation, Nazarite vow etc.
This is suspicious.

* Although its people supposedly kept the Law of Moses until
the time of "Christ" the book places the death of "Christ"
on "the first month, on the fourth day" (3Ne. 8:5)
though this day would have been Passover, the 14th day
of the month on the Biblical/Jewish calendar. In fact
Passover roughly corresponds with the full moon and would
be within a day of the 15th (on a newmoon based calendar)
or a day of the 1st (on any Fullmoon based calendar) So not only
is this supposed "BoM calendar" not the Biblical newmoon calendar
it could not even be a lunar calendar at all.

James Trimm

Study Torah with SANJ Mitvah Club

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  Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size
1705 Re: Hidden Agendas James Trimm   Mon  8/14/2000   6 KB
1706 Re: Hidden Agendas Olson, Robert T   Mon  8/14/2000   2 KB
1711 Hidden Agendas Michael Kelley   Mon  8/14/2000   5 KB
1714 Re: Hidden Agendas James Trimm   Tue  8/15/2000   5 KB
1715 Hidden Agendas Mike Kelley   Tue  8/15/2000   11 KB
1717 Re: Hidden Agendas Pat   Tue  8/15/2000   3 KB
1723 Re: Hidden Agendas Olson, Robert T   Tue  8/15/2000   2 KB

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