Forward from Steven

Subject: Fw: James Trimm, Kathy issues
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:52:56 -0700
From: "Grafted-In Ministries" <>
To: "Kathyn" <>, "James Trimm" <>

----- Original Message -----
From: Grafted-In Ministries
To: Schmuel
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: James Trimm, Kathy issues

Hi Schmuel
Long hear from.  Thanks for your note but the issue regarding Trimm/Kathryn is a "closed one" as far as we are concerned.  Your opinion is as valid as ours but this topic is "closed" as far as we are concerned and is not open for "debate" or "conversation".
Thanks again for your note.
Bill and Jo

       ----- Original Message -----
       From: Schmuel
       To: Bill and Jo Kuhlmeyer
       Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 9:19 AM
       Subject: James Trimm, Kathy issues


          I am reading the James Trimm stuff and wish to make some comments....

       1. Rabbi Yosef and related issues..

       "We find James Trimm's use of the pseudonym of Rabbi
       Yosef not  inappropriate on the Mormon forums within James
       Trimm's frame of reference. "

       I think you ALMOST TOTALLY overlooked the true issues here..
       Remember the "real issues, the pseudo-issues and the non-issues"

       As I understand the issue was not the USE of the pseudonym
       (I don't think that was ever an issue)  but
       that Rabbi Yosef actually declared belief in the BOM....
       This has still not been addressed (James considers it a private
       issue, for him and the Beit Din and Yom Kippur, while acknowledging
       that it is "questionable" (private conversation on IRC))

       I will be reluctant to trust a leader that creates personas
       that are irreconcilable to the faith..  and speak spiritual
       falsehoods (ie the "truth" of the BOM)

       (Two other issues were the lying about it (confirmed)
         and the attacks upon the lady in Colorado and Kathy
         (eg. "anti-semite", unbalanced etc)  ...

       The second is confirmed (below) and the last is ignored by you

       "When confronted...his initial denial was a lie and a
       Torah-observant  Bet-Din should have  sanctioned him for this. "

       "Kathryn was informed by James' Bet-Din that they found no fault
       with  his actions and for her to say that they did not investigate
        the charge is a lie  and she owes restitution to James Trimm.  "
       This is a strong accusation by you against Kathy..
       Therefore I ask you for..
         1) The dates and nature of the investigation..
         2) Who and how was the investigation conducted..
         3) The issues of the investigation..
         4) Any public details or statement of the investigation...\
         5) who was contacted by the investigators ?

       Would you consider a couple of phone calls between Beit Din
         members an "investigation" and therefore accuse Kathy of
         a "lie" ?? sheesh...

       Do you find any incongruity between the fact that this supposed
         investigation found "no fault" yet
        1) You say above James denial was a lie
        2) James, as Rabbi Yosef, advocated the BOM
        3) At least two women were defamed (they were apologized to on
               some issues, especially the anti-semitic charge)
        4) Much of the history/archives was eliminated.
       2. The Doctorate issue

          You ignore the "fishiness" of the diploma, the history of the institution
          that granted it, the lack of even one teacher referenced

           Why ? To me, to ignore this issue is astounding, and I lose faith
           in your abilities, especially since you are so quick to call folks
           "liars" ...

       3. The Yeshiva Issue
            A complicated issue, and I agree this is the muddiest of all ..
            It is too big for my morning time now :-)
            Perhaps will be saved to a secondary post, if you feel we are
              touching on pertinent issues..
       4.  The response of Jame's

             I disagree with you here, I feel his response was mostly
             just to attack and obfuscate..

             Ironically, the only exception you offer is the Yeshiva info on the
             websites.. (changed somewhat  by James and MBI both)
             largely because it was likely  to either deceive students or lead
             to action by the authorities..
             (eg. MBI changed  there reference to the "accrediting agency"
              that they are involved with...changed two of their faculty members
              to "in memory of", put other disclaimers in)

            Many other issues were and still not have been properly dealt
       5. The Investigation
          I touch on that above, I hope you can answer those questions..

          I am on all the Nazarene forums, have met one current
            Beit Din member,  I think to call what they did an "investigation"
          .. and then you accuse Kathy of lying..
           is disassembling the english language..
       6. Beit Din issues
          Will pass for now..
       "She needs to  recognize that James Trimm has solid legal grounds to bring a
       suit for
       (1)  Defamation of character as well as
       (2) slander and liable against her and that  the courts would probably
       award him punitative damages. "

       EXCUSE ME, are you a lawyer ???

         btw no word "punitative".. only punitive
       Bill, so far I am saddened by how you have thrown out
          1) accusations
          2) legal "advice"

       Based on what seems like a very shoddy research job by you...

       BTW, I consider myself a friend of the Nazarene Forum and of
         James, and a fairly frequent poster over two years..

       We have been allies on some issues (I brought up the "Dan Israel"
       book a year before Jame's made it an issue at the Unity Conference)

       Enuf for now... I felt I had to rush a preliminary note out to you...

       Steven in New York..

       (able to discuss more on IM, email or phone...)


        ICQ #12840631

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