Steve Heiliczer next reply

Subject: RE: 6 steps
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:18:20 -0400
From: "Rabbi Yeshayahu Heiliczer" <>
To:  "purnhrt" <>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: purnhrt []
> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2000 5:28 PM
> To:
> Cc:;;;
> Subject: Re: 6 steps
> Shalom b'YHWH
> Steve, may I ask, where was the concern for lashon hara when
> the [H's] were being slandered? Where was the
> concern for lashon hara, when I posted the truth of a matter,
> which was requested, in defence of a slander accusation? Where
> was the concern for lashon hara when James Trimm accused me of
> being a hardcore anti-semite, a
> liar, in league with anti-semites, etc.? Where was the concern
> when James made another post to his list, insinuating that I was
> a liar in saying I did not know "him", but then later saying I
> did? All of his accusations I have refutted and proven they were false.

First, as you know two wrongs do not make a right.  Loshon Hara is never justified in response to Loshon Hara.

Second, there IS concern about the things you have claimed, and it is being looked into.

Third, I have heard from people from every corner of the Messianic world asking about the things you have claimed.  Your spreading of this stuff literally to the whole world through the posting of a web site, clearly outweighs any alleged statements on a list server.

Proving that allegations made about you are false is very different than setting out to ruin a person's name throughout the world.

> I have made several calls today, to various Rabbis of Orthodox
> Shuls. I also called the Rabbinical Assembly in New York. The
> statements of all, concerning this situation are this:
> It is not lashon hara to defend one unjustly accused. It is not
> lashon hara to state the truth in your own defense. It is not
> lashon hara to reveal the truth of a situation, that is currently
> on going. In fact, they stated that it is a responsibility to
> prove the truth and to stop the perpetuating of fraud, deception and lies.

They are wrong.  It is loshon hara to set out to destroy a person's name throughout the world whether your accusations were true or not.  Your responsibility is to bring it to the Beit Din, which you did, and wait for them to investigate.  Other than that the only thing you are allowed to do is to answer someone if they personally inquire if you know anything about that person.  Spreading bad words about someone, even if true, is loshon hara.

> I was not general with these Rabbi's, but very specific in the
> nature of what is happening. And this situation is still going on
> now. Hence my question to you, if James Trimm was directed by
> y'all to post the 6 steps about the Mormons.

No, we haven't directed him to post anything.  When I received it I saw it as just another of his teaching posts.  He often puts his thoughts about something he is studying on a post and sends it to the leadership.

> As I have stated before, I am not committing lashon hara, yet
> James Trimm has, and much more. I appealed to this Beit Din
> several times, in this matter and no one responded or
> investigated this situation.

As I said, it is being looked into.  The fact that there are reams of stuff to look through doesn't make it any easier.  And pushing the Beit Din won't help either.

>I have more proof now. I still have
> not received a full apology and retraction of the lies spoken
> against me.

You need to specifically and simply state specific things you want him to apologize for.  And only to Beit Din members.

>Nor have the [H's] received an
> apology for the slander spoken against them and an investigation
> into the charges levied against them as a Beit Din and the Beit
> Din's decision against them.

The Beit Din's decision against the [H's] was based on specific charges which we deemed to be true.  It has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon nor anything except her treatment of,  and statements against the leadership.

> I am fully aware of the discussion at the forum, about lashon
> hara. I have seen the statements of Luana Fabry about people that
> commit this, it is because of hate, and Michael Detwilers
> comments that it is pride. I know that this is directed at me,
> since James said that he was not going to have a lashon hara
> contest with me. I told him that I was
> not having one. He then brought the subject of lashon hara to the
> forum. I am not doing this out of hate, but to see justice and
> righteousness done. I am not proud either, except in being called
> out of darkness, redeemed by the blood of Yahusha` and adopted
> into the Beyth YHWH and observe the Thorah of YHWH. THese are the
> things I take pride in.

I don't know you, and I wasn't on the forums you are speaking about.  I gave up forums 5 years ago because they do not pay any dividend for me or YHVH as compared to the time wasted.  But I assure you that the WAY you are going about this is making you SEEM vindictive (even if you aren't) and a "trouble maker."  There are much better and much quieter ways of handing these kinds of problems.  When a person's reputation is involved, is should be handled in a quiet way.  A web site is not quiet.

As I have said before, it is being looked into.  But it will not be done quickly as you would like.  These things take months to sort out, and your screaming is only slowing down the process.

I have nothing against you personally, I don't know you.  I am just troubled with the noise level.  I have someone compiling and organizing your many volumes of e-mails and that should help me look at everything.

Yeshayahu Heiliczer