Subject: Re: 6 steps
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:32:36 -0500
From: purnhrt <email@example.com>
CC: firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com
Steve, I was not making two wrongs right, by committing another wrong. To state the truth, in defense of slander, is not committing another wrong, but Thorah.
As to your looking into this, when were you going to let me know? When everyone believed the lies spoken by James Trimm against my name?
I gave James and this Beit Din, every opportunity to deal
with this when it first occurred. No one forced James to lie and slander. He
could have apologized at any time. But when he increased his lies and posted
them to his list, when the Beit Din refused to acknowledge a single one of my
e-mails, I took the matter to the Beyth YHWH, which I told you I would do, if
I did not hear from you. As to a website, it is no different than a public forum
on the net. YOu do not seem to be too concerned
about the lies and slander on that site.
I am not setting out to ruin his name. His own lies, slander and behavior in these matters will ruin his name. No one forced him to do these things. My posting of truth is not to be blamed for any fallout against him. Had he walked uprightly to begin with, we would not even be having this discussion.
You wrote, "They are wrong. It is loshon hara to set out to destroy a person's name throughout the world whether your accusations were true or not. Your responsibility is to bring it to the Beit Din, which you did, and wait for them to investigate. Other than that the only thing you are allowed to do is to answer someone if they personally inquire if you know anything about that person. Spreading bad words about someone, even if true, is loshon hara."
So you are telling me that real rabbis, that have studied and earned their titles, who serve in shuls and a consortium of them, acknowledged by other rabbis and shuls, is wrong and you are right?
I did bring all of this to your Beit Din, even though I
do not accept your authority, simply because James Trimm said he was accountable
to you. I brought it to you not once, but three times. YOu were also included
in the mailings to the Beyth YHWH and the rebuttal to James Trimm's last assault.
At what point were you going to let me know that you were investigating? Not
one of you answered my Beit Din e-mails. Perhaps you thought it too insignificant
to even send a reponse. "As I said, it is
being looked into. The fact that there are reams of stuff to look through doesn't make it any easier. And pushing the Beit Din won't help either." The "reams" increase everytime James makes another false accusation. If I waited for the Beit Din to investigate this in their own time, I would be sitting here like the [H's], being falsely accused, with people believeing the lies. It has been 7 months now, for them. I will not wait that long. I am not pushing the Beit Din. I gave you
my evidence, it is yours to do with as you please, but I told you before, I am not dependent on your for my justification. I have taken it to the Beyth YHWH for a decision, since the Beit Din was not addressing the matter. Every day that goes by and every person that James has sent those lies to, is another person that I have to reach with the truth.
"You need to specifically and simply state specific things
you want him to apologize for. And only to Beit Din members." Did you
even read my e-mails? Since you dont seem to know how he has slandered me, I
dont think that you have. I wrote to you of his slander, right when it happened.
You say that it takes time. DO you know how long it has taken others to go over
my chronological site, not once, but several times, with all the evidence and
e-mails, checking EliYah's forum and the nazarene and
chojc list, to determine that what I spoke was truth? A week at most. Do you want to know how many people have written me, telling me that they believe me and that I am owed a full apology and a retraction? Do you want to know how many of them are asking that since James lied in the matter concerning me, that they are now questioning the situation with the [H's]? Do you know of the conversations on aim and the forwarded e-mails, to people I dont even know or have addresses for? THese people are
making it a priority. These people see a major injustice here. WHy is it taking you so long?
Since posting the 6 step, James Trimm told a man, who is
a Mormon, that believes James Trimms teaching that the BoM is an ancient Jewish
document, written by Jews and to Jews and Gentiles, etc., that he was
forced to post that by the Beit Din. That is why I asked y'all if you did. James
also made other posts to a forum called two_sticks, validating the BoM in light
of Thorah, on the 20th..
You wrote, "The Beit Din's decision against the [H's] was based on specific charges which we deemed to be true. It has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon nor anything except her treatment of, and statements against the leadership."
Steve, perhaps you have not read the charges against the
[H's] that were posted at a public forum on 1-13-2000, by Michael Detwiler,
the Av of the Beit Din. This does include the BoM. I have written to Perry,
their rabbi, and none of these charges were brought before him, nor was evidence
provided for these charges. THe only charge brought before him was that of the
destruction of property (pagan christmas decorations), which occured 2 1/2 years
ago. The [H's] compensated the
church for their decorations and the matter was cleared with the owner of the church, after the event. As to a number of other charges listed below, the matters were not investigated by the Beit Din and the [H's]l were falsely charged and deserve an apology and retraction.
From: Michael Detwiler <mijoy@w...>
Date: Thu Jan 13, 2000 10:35am
As of January 13th, 2000 [Mr. H.] (along with his wife, [Mrs. H.]) have been formally disassociated from the Nazarene Community by the International Nazarene Beit Din. Sandra was disassociated on the 12th, and a vote was then taken regarding her husband, [Mr. H.].
They are guilty of lashon hara, extreme hypocrisy, harrassment, internet (email) spamming, vandalism, and cursing the elders of the Nazarene Community and others in the Messianic movement. In addition, [Mr. H.] is not able to rule over his own house ( I Timothy 3:4), and has enabled his wife, [Mrs. H.] , to continue with her continual harrassment of the leadership of the true Kehilat of Yahweh.
They are also guilty of specific Torah violations, with no genuine repentance:
They are proclaimed to be:
"Navi Sheker" (False Prophets)- Proclaming "prophecies" in the name of Yahweh "led" by the Ruach Ha Kodesh that are contrary to Torah.
"Maysit" (one who seduces others to go astray) According to their seductions and teachings of the Book of Mormon on the Nazarene list servers.
Promotion of "Dat Sheker" (False Religions)
This action has not been taken rashly nor lightly. The power
of disassociation (Aramaic: Sh'kal) is a power YHWH has given to the Beit Din
for very good reasons. The power of the Beit-Din to disassociate is detailed
in Mt. 18:15-19 (see also 1Cor. 5 & 2Thes. 3:6). They are to be recognized
by the Nazarene
community as pagans (Mt. 18:17) we urge those in the community not to associate with them in any way, or to even to eat with them (1Cor. 5:11). They have been delivered to HaSatan (1Cor. 5:5).
...we command you, my brothers, in the name of our Adon Yeshua the Messiah, that you stay away from every brother who walks wickedly and not according to the commandments which you received from us. (2Thes. 3:6 from the Aramaic)
This dissassociation include their banishment from ALL SANJ
sponsored events, ( celebrations of the Moedim ), banished from ALL SANJ affiliated
congregations, banishment from ALL SANJ list servers and website interactions,
banishment from ALL SANJ regional or international Torah studies, banishment
from the SANJ Yeshiva, etc. They are also banned from any involvement with Kehilat
Tnuvah, Denver, congregational leader, Mark McLellan, and from ALL associations
with First Fruits of Zion, and
international Hebraic roots teaching and training ministry.
Shalom to all. Now we should go on with our Nazarene work, while praying for the [H's] that Yahweh will show them mercy and truth.
AV Beit Din
Vice President- Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism, International This list provided by
SANJ sponsors: http://www.nazaren"
Steve, out of the original almost 400 I mailed out to, only
10 asked to be removed from the list. THose 10 were SANJ affiliates and one
that is a member of your house. Of all the other people responding, not one
has said that I am a troublemaker or vindictive. Most believe that what I am
doing is of YHWH, to reveal truth and have said that the hand of YHWH is with
me to bring truth to light. They have forwarded my plea and even sent addresses
and posted it at other forums. It may be trouble for
you and may even seem vindictive in your eyes, but it is not your name or your reputation that was falsely smeared and the Beyth YHWH is rising up in this matter, that you ignored.
That someone compiling for you has not even read my site, as of a week ago, by her own statements. I also told her that my site is laid out chronologically and is simpler to read there, than a multitude of printed out copies. I do not see the logic in all that, when it is right there on the net. Nor am I willing to wait months for a full apology and retraction of horrendous lies that went out in minutes. The longer it takes, the more he says and does, the more that is brought to light.
You wrote, "I have nothing against you personally"
THat is the same thing James Trimm said after calling me a hardcore anti-semite,
etc. I asked him what it was if not personal. Business? As I told him, "I believe
so. I believe it was business to you, the business of covering your butt." Are
you in the same business as James Trimm, or will you stand on Thorah and act
in righteousness and expediently? That is my question to this Beit Din. Shalom,