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Author Topic:   Unity Conference, a Jewish view
YermeYah
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posted 08-25-1999 06:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for YermeYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom James Trimm,

I do not have a lot of time before I must go to work, but I do have some comments that I would like to make.

I belonged to the House of Yahweh in Odessa Texas, I was there for almost 7 years. It was run by Jacob Hawkins, Yisrayl Hawkin's older brother, now deseased.

I was required to have my head covered at all times and a kipa was required during services. I have studied the subject and have come to the decision that unless you are a levitical priest, then you are not commanded to cover your head.

Have you ever read "The Thirteenth Tribe, a history of the Khazar Jews" by Arthur Koestler? It basically claims that the majority of the world's present day Jewish population is not even descended from Abraham, but rather comes from the land of the Khazars.

While I am not anti-semetic, I surely am against putting the talmud on the same level as the Scriptures!

Yahushua serverly rebuked the Pharisees of his day for rejecting the Word of YHWH through their tradition, which is something I believe many Jews do today, such as washing of hands, the seperating of meat and milk, the Messianic Jews even have Rabbis other than Yahushua!!

Matthew 23:5 - But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
23:6 - And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
23:7 - And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
23:8 - But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Rabbi, even the Messiah; and all ye are brethren.

and again...

Matthew 16:6 - Then Yahushua said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
16:7 - And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
16:8 - Which when Yahushua perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
16:9 - Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
16:10 - Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
16:11 - How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
16:12 - Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

[This message has been edited by YermeYah (edited 08-25-1999).]

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Jozef
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posted 08-25-1999 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jozef     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom,
Brothers,  Sisters, please lets not waist precious energy and time on fighting one another. Ha-Satan has a ball if we are sidetracked on small arguments and bickering.
I am a simple man, reading The word not verbatim, but in the, and with The Spirit of the author so to speak.
I am not saying that an in-depth study of the root meanings of words is wrong, but the letter killeth.
The journey is hard enough as it is to have others on the same road throw stones at you.
Lets make up our own minds on matters according as the Ruach leads us.
I speak in love not rebuke, and would like to see love returned to this forum once again.
We have entered the "days of Awe", lets freely forgive one another.
shake hands, and make up. Not for unity's sake, but for the sake of Yahweh.
I am for the Believing Jews, I wear a Kippah now and then, I am for unity of both houses.
But I am not for any argument. So if you want to pick me to bits, you are welcome,....but don't expect a response. In this world the strongest ( or the most learned ) is always right. But I am not part of this system of things, and our hope lays beyond.
My YAHWEH bless You all with eternal life ( for I think it takes that long to grow wise)
Kind regards
Jozef.

[This message has been edited by Jozef (edited 08-25-1999).]

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Kathryn
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posted 08-25-1999 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kathryn     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
James, I speak, read and write English very well, hence the capitalizing of a word that requires it in our English langauge. I asked for your view and application of the word, not a dictionary entry. But since you want to use dictionaries, I will. See, I teach Latin and Greek roots to my kids, and I know that anti- is a prefix that means against.
Websters anti- a learned borrowing from Greek meaning "against," "opposite of".

Now Websters also shows Semite as - 1. a member of any of the peoples supposedly descended from Shem, the eldest son of Noah. 2. a Jew 3. a member of any of the various ancient and modern peoples originating in SW Asia, including the Sumerians, Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews and Arabs.

So you can take the prefix anti- and place it with 1, 2, or 3, and come up with anti-semite. Again I ask you, how do you define it?

Your attempt to cast dispersions on my ability to read, will not work. I am trying to find out exactly what it is that you believe. Get on the same page, so to speak. I try to get things clarified, before I begin discussions with someone, to avoid misunderstandings and mistakes. That, I assumed was common courtesy.

So the authority you are under is one that was established by you and you are the president of? Who were the other two Torah observant men? You say nine, yet the site you listed shows seven, with two friends of the court, who are not able to vote. Who are the other two? What gives you the authority to set up a Beit Din and establish halakah?

You say, "The beit din system is both the biblical way and the Jewish way for Nazarene Judaism to establish halacha and govern itself." Since you say that this is the Jewish way and advocate Nazarene Judaism, you would then be acknowledged by and accepted by Nazarene Judaism, correct?

No, not all Websters dictionaries are the same. The later the year, the more liberal the definition. I have a copy of the original Websters dictionary, written in the 1800's and there are major differences.

I did not say that Websters said anything about deunification of the two houses. I used your listing of anti-semetic, due to your not listing your own, in place of the rest of the statement. Adding your A + B + C. Since you are dancing all around this issue, why don't you just explain it yourself. What do you, James Trimm and not Websters, define who an anti-semite is, and what it is that they do that deunifies the houses of Yahudah and Ephrayim. Does speaking against Judaism qualify as anti-semite? Does not accepting Talmud as equal to Torah qualify as anti-semite? Does anyone who disagrees with the standard practices of Jews, rabbinic traditions, that do not accept Yahusha' HaMashiach and His teachings qualify as anti-semite? What exactly are you saying? I am asking specific questions and giving you the opportunity to clearly answer and you are dancing all around. What is it that you believe?

THe House of Yahudah were those that descended from the Tribe of Yahudah, the southern Kingdom. The House of Ephrayim were those that descended from the other 10 tribes, the northern Kingdom, which Ephrayim was the head of. Nowhere in Scripture does it say anything about Jewish followers of Yahuweh verses non-Jewish followers of Yahuweh. Why would you make a distinction that Scripture, nor Orthodox halacha does. According to Scripture, when a non Hebrew, a Goy, becomes a believer in Yahuweh, they are reckoned as Yisrael.

BeMidbar [Numbers] 15:15,16, " 'One law is for you of the assembly and for the ger [sojourner] who sojourns with you - a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the ger before Yahuweh. One Torah and one judgement is for you and for the ger who sojourns with you.' "

Yeshayahu [Isaiah] 14:1, " 'Because Yahuweh has compassion on Yaaqob, and will again choose Yisrael, and give them rest in their own land. And the ger will join them and be attached to the Beyth Yaaqob [ House of Yaaqob].' "

Yechezqel [Ezekiel] 47:21-23, " 'And you will divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Yisrael. And it will be that you divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the geriym who sojourn in your midst and who bear children among you. And they will be to you as native-born among the sons of Yisrael - with you they have an inheritance in the idst of the tribes of Yisrael. And it will be that in whatever tribe the ger sojourns, there you give him his inheritance,' declares the Adonaiy Yahuweh."

Ephesians 2:19, " 'So then you are no longer aliens and foreigners, but fellow citizens with Yahuwehs people and members of Yahuwehs household.' "


"Most geirim converted, which is why geir eventually blurred with "convert." However,
when the geir converts, Orthodox halakhah then recognizes him or her as a Jew(ess). The
Jew(ess) -- whom Orthodox halakhah prohibits from even being reminded of their non-Jewish past -- is then no longer a geir(ah). "

So where do you get this House of Yahudah being believing Jews and the House of Ephrayim being the non-Jewish believers?

Shalom, Kathryn

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James Trimm
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posted 08-25-1999 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for James Trimm     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
>So the authority you are under is one
>that was established by you and you
>are the president of?

It was established by three men two years ago. The Beit-Din is now made up of nine but six are currently voting members. One of the remaining three will have voting status in about three months. Two others have not sought voting status but still debate issues with the beit din.

>What gives you the authority to set up a
>Beit Din and establish halakah?

That information is at the website at http://www.nazarene.net/beitdin


>You say, "The beit din system is both the
>biblical way and the Jewish way for
>Nazarene Judaism to establish halacha and
>govern itself." Since you say that this is
>the Jewish way and advocate Nazarene
>Judaism, you would then be acknowledged by
>and accepted by Nazarene Judaism, correct?

The International Nazarene Beit Din is recognized by about fifty Nazarene assemblies worldwide and a total of about
6,000 Nazarene individuals worldwide.

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James Trimm
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posted 08-25-1999 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for James Trimm     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Some things the Scriptures say about Jews and Judaism:

"...ten men shall take hold out of all
languages of the nations, even shall
take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew,
saying, "We will go with you: for we
have heard that ELOHIM is with you."
(Zech. 8:23)

Ephraim is joined to Judah at the runion of the tribes.
(Ezek. 37:15-19)

"You know not what you you worship,
we know what we worship,
for salvation is of the Jews."
(Jn. 4:22)

"What advantage has the Jew?...
much in every way;
chiefly, because that to them
were committed the oracles of Elohim."
(Rom. 3:1-2)

"Now those who were scattered after the
persecution that arose over Stephen traveled
as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch,
proclaiming the word to no one but the Jews
only."
(Acts 11:19)
(Up until Acts 11:19 this was almost exclucively a Jewish movement)

"Men and brothers, I [Paul] am a Pharisee..."
(Acts 23:6)

"But Paul said, I am a Jew..."
(Acts 21:39)

"I [Paul] am truely a man which is a Jew..."
(Acts 22:3)

"Paul's religion was called "Judaism" (Gal. 1:13-14)
of the "sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5).

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Kathryn
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posted 08-25-1999 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kathryn     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
James, you did not answer my questions concerning who is a Jew and anti-semitism. Nor did you answer my questions about who the other two men were that co founded this Beit Din. You did not answer any of my specific questions concerning specific acts, if the were deemed anti-semetic by you. You did not answer my questions about where you got the idea for a House of Yahudah being Jewish believers and the House of Ephraim being non-Jewish believers. Of all my questions, you chose to answer only the one concerning your acceptance as a legitimate Beit Din.

James, Here is a quote from an e-mail, in which I inquired about your group, its recognition and authority, to Yirmiyahu Ben David, of the Netzarim in Israel.


Shalom from the Netzarim in Raanana, Israel Kathryn.

>Contact: = I am writing to see if a group, that originates out of Hurst, Texas (close >to Dallas), is
recognized by you and Jerusalem, as being a legitimate Nestariym >branch. It is called the Society for the Advancement of Nazarene Judaism, headed by >James Trimm. He has set up national and international associations, with other >Messianic groups. He established a Beit Din. He promotes this group, as the authority, >in early C.E. history, concerning the practices and beliefs of the earliest
Believers in >Yahusha' HaMashiach. I am curious if you are aware of him and his group, and if >you recognize him as a branch of yours. Thank you for your time.

"We are the only followers of Yehoshua the Mashiakh recognized and accepted in Orthodox Judaism and the State of Israel. None of the organizations you listed have any legitimate connection to Orthodox Judaism, the State of Israel or us. They are illegitimate and should be shunned."

It seems like you are creating your own religion, your own Beit Din, of which you are the Nasi (prince) and establishing your own halacha. You are determining who is acceptable to Yahuweh and who is not. THose that disagree with you are kicked out of your organization, shunned at your lists and when they are outside of your reach, you call them anti-semetic and try to get them ostracized by the rest of your followers.

Maybe it is something they are putting in the water, down here in Texas, that breeds this form of cultic sectarianism. I have my own well, literally and figuratively. I look to Yahuweh and His Torah as my authority and the Way (Yahusha') to walk (halacha) as my path. I drink deeply from His well of Salavation. One that is without cost, I might add. The Scriptures are quite clear if you have eyes to see and ears to hear, and do not need rabbinic or your brand of halacha to "expound" upon them. Funny, but I thought Yahuweh said that was His Ruach's job.

So far, you have shown me nothing of a Scripture basis, to defend your accusations and your position.

Shalom, Kathryn

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YermeYah
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posted 08-25-1999 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for YermeYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Shalom everyone,

I would like to continue...

After leaving the House of Yahweh in Odessa Texas, I visited an assembly of Yahweh in the midwest, and I still felt convicted to wear a kippa at that time. We stayed there for about 3 months, and I was never allowed to even get up before the congregation to sing a song because I had my head covered.

I believe the only reason for this is what is found written by Sha'ul in 1 Corinthians chapter 11...

1Corinthians 11:4 - Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

But if this means that a man can never have a hat on his head when he is praying or prophesying, where did Sha'ul get this teaching, was it given to him personally through a vision, is there any place in the Tanak (old testament) that backs up the idea that a man "cannot pray or prophesy" with his head covered?

Like I said before, I do not believe that anyone is commanded to have their head covered at all times but the Levitical priests...

Leviticus 10:6 - And Moses said unto Aaron, and unto Eleazar and unto Ithamar, his sons, Uncover not your heads, neither rend your clothes; lest ye die, and lest wrath come upon all the people: but let your brethren, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning which YHWH hath kindled.

However, there is a place where the sons of Israel were commanded to cover their heads...

Ezekiel 24:16 - Son of man, behold, I take away from thee the desire of thine eyes with a stroke: yet neither shalt thou mourn nor weep, neither shall thy tears run down.
17 - Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the turban upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not thy lips, and eat not the bread of men.
24:18 - So I spake unto the people in the morning: and at even my wife died; and I did in the morning as I was commanded.
24:19 - And the people said unto me, Wilt thou not tell us what these things are to us, that thou doest so?
24:20 - Then I answered them, The word of YHWH came unto me, saying,
24:21 - Speak unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Sovereign YHWH; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellency of your strength, the desire of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword.
22 - And ye shall do as I have done: ye shall not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.
24:23 - And your turbans shall be upon your heads, and your shoes upon your feet: ye shall not mourn nor weep; but ye shall pine away for your iniquities, and mourn one toward another.
24:24 - Thus Ezekiel is unto you a sign: according to all that he hath done shall ye do: and when this cometh, ye shall know that I am the Sovereign YHWH.

Ezekiel was a priest...

Ezekiel 1:3 - The word of YHWH came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of YHWH was there upon him.

If someone comes to me and feels convicted to have his head covered while praying, I will not treat him as though he were commiting an abomination, and by the same token, I hope that he would have the same consideration for me if my head is not covered when I pray.

By the way, I have had a job working in the sun this summer, and I have worn a hat, and let me assure you, while I was working, I did not feel the need to remove the hat before praying to Abba.

Hoping for unity in the body of Yahushua ha Mashiach,
YermeYah

[This message has been edited by YermeYah (edited 08-25-1999).]

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James Trimm
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posted 08-25-1999 04:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for James Trimm     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
>Nor did you answer my questions about who
>the other two men were that co founded this
>Beit Din.

Myself, Eric Sandquist and Chris Lingle(who is no longer with us)

>You did not answer any of my specific
>questions concerning specific acts,

Because as I pointed out the stated premise of your question was based upon misquoting me in the first place.

>You did not answer my questions
>about where you got the idea for
>a House of Yahudah being Jewish
>believers and the House of Ephraim
>being non-Jewish believers.

I never equated the House of Ephraim with non Jewish believers, only with Ephraimite believers.

>James, Here is a quote from an e-mail,
> in which I inquired about your group,
>its recognition and authority,
> to Yirmiyahu Ben David, of the
>Netzarim in Israel.

They are a small minority group. They reject the virgin birth as well as the diety of Messiah and they use only the Tanak and the Book of Matthew (and then only their own version).

They also are NOT Yahwists in ANY form.
They absolutely refuse to pronounce the sacred name.

They are a complete non issue.


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Kathryn
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posted 08-25-1999 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kathryn     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Why is Chris Lingle no longer with you?

I did not misquote you, only pointed out that the definition was from your Websters, and not your own, which was what I had originally asked you. You are still dancing around those questions.

When you state that the House of Yahudah is Jewish believers, what does that leave the House of Ephrayim? You are trying to sidestep things. What do you view Ephraimite, if non-Jewish? You are still separating, making divisions, and sectioning (sectarianism) those that belong to Yahuweh. You have no basis Scripturally for that.

I do not feel that Yirmiyahu's attitude toward your group is a non issue. It goes to prove that I am not the only one that is questioning your authority. ANd when did numbers mean anything? Yahusha' said that the road to destruction was broad and the gate wide and that many would enter through it - meaning majority and the road to life was narrow and the gate small and only a few would find it - meaning minority. So don't flaunt numbers with me. I left that behind when I dumped Christianity.

You seem to be setting yourself up as some High Priest of Nazareneism, Yhwhism, Judaism, etc. What I am doing is questioning your authority to do so. What gives you the right to dictate to others what the Truth is and how to walk in it. What gives you the right to determine what parts of Judaism are acceptable and everyone who disagrees is anti-semetic? What gives you the right to say that Talmud is equal to Torah and anyone who disagrees is anti-semetic? What gives you the right to say that if someone disagrees with you, and you label them anti-semetic, that you can get others to do your bidding and keep them from future conferences and such?

These are but a handful of questions. It was easy for you to put up accusations all over the net, but it seems difficult for you to substantiate them, most importantly from the Scriptures. I am not one of your "yes men" at your lists. I don't take "because" for an answer. I want to see the Scriptural basis for these accusations and other statements.

Shalom, Kathryn

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James Trimm
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posted 08-25-1999 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for James Trimm     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote

1. I will NOT engage in Lashon Hara regarding Mr. Lingle.

2. The Torah REQUIRES Torah observant communities to make for themselves judges as I said this is explained at our site.

3. I am not harping the numbers except to show that this is not just me and that the group in Ra'ana is NOT representative of the vast majority of "Nazarene Judaism"

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Kathryn
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posted 08-25-1999 07:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kathryn     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
James, Why didn't Lashon Hara stop you when you started going on about anti-semitism concerning Pete and Dan, because they have points of disagreement with Judaism. You posted it here, on all your list servers and who knows where else. Why was the evil tongue not kept in check then?

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James Trimm
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posted 08-25-1999 07:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for James Trimm     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
It is NOT Lashon Hara to discuss matters
which are public knowledge. Both Dan and Pete's statements were published in some way in a public forum.

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Kathryn
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posted 08-26-1999 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kathryn     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
James, after typing the rest of Chapter 12 today, I called Christ Lingle about your statement, "The beit-din was first founded by three Torah-observant men. I was one of them. It has since grown to nine (see http://www.nazarene.net/beitdin ) I serve as Nasi (president) however I only have one vote." Chris emphatically denies that he was a cofounder. He states that it was your idea and you approached Eric Lindquist and him, about their participation. Chris did not accept your offer of Av Beit Din (like second in command to your Nasi).He even felt that the title Nasi was inappropriate.

By the way, Nasik (nun, samech, yod, kaph) means prince, from the root, NSK, which means to pour out, as in anointing. Nasia (nun, sin, yod, aleph) means prince, post Biblical Hebrew - chief of the 'Sanhedrin', patriarch and New Hebrew - president. [Derived from NSA and literally meaning 'lifted up, exalted'].

So I ask you, are you equating yourself with a prince, an anointed one, chief of the Sanhedrin, a patriarch or an exalted one?

To start an organization, set yourself up as Nasi and gather others around you, sounds like you are the one in authority, rather than under someones authority. So again, I ask, under what authority do you determine that someone is anti-semetic and should be ostrasized, and counted as an enemy of YHWH, if they do not agree with Judaism and the Talmud?

Here are some Hebrew and Israel quotes for you.

Romans 11:1, this is Shaul talkng, " 'I say then, has Yahuweh rejected His people? Let it not be! For I also am from Yisrael, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Binyamin.' "

Yahuchanan 1:47, Yahusha' saying of Nethanel, " 'Yahusha' saw Nethanel coming toward Him, and said of him, "See, truly a son of Yisrael, in whom is no deceit!" ' "

Luke 1:16, speaking of Yahuchanan the Immerser prior to his conception, " 'And he will turn any of the sons of Yisrael to Yahuweh.' "

Romans 11:25,26, " 'For I do not wish you to be ignorant of this secret, brothers, otherwise you should be wise in your own estimation, that the hardening in part has come over Yisrael, until the completeness of the Goyim has come in. Ans so all Yisrael will be saved, as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Tsiyon, and He will turn away wickedness from Yaaqob." ' "

THere are bunches of Yisrael and Hebrew passages.

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James Trimm
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posted 08-27-1999 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for James Trimm     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
>James, after typing the rest of Chapter 12
>today, I called Christ Lingle

I assume you mean Chris Lingle

> about your statement, "The beit-din was
>first founded by three Torah-observant men. >I was one of them. It has since grown to
>nine (see http://www.nazarene.net/beitdin )
>I serve as Nasi (president) however I only
>have one vote." Chris emphatically denies
>that he was a cofounder.

He emphatically denies many things.

>He states that it was your idea and you
>approached Eric Lindquist and him, about
>their participation. Chris did not accept
>your offer of Av Beit Din (like second in
>command to your Nasi).He even felt that the
>title Nasi was inappropriate.

Again I do not agree with Chris here. I suggest you check with Eric Sandquist (not lindquist)

>By the way, Nasik (nun, samech, yod, kaph)
>means prince, from the root, NSK, which
>means to pour out, as in anointing. Nasia
>(nun, sin, yod, aleph) means prince, post
>Biblical Hebrew - chief of the 'Sanhedrin',
>patriarch and New Hebrew - president.
>[Derived from NSA and literally
>meaning 'lifted up, exalted'].
>

>So I ask you, are you equating yourself
>with a prince, an anointed one, chief of
>the Sanhedrin, a patriarch or an exalted
>one?

Nasi is simply the Hebrew word for the president/chairman of a beit-din. I serve in that position at the pleasure of the beit-din members. They could vote me out at any time.

>To start an organization, set yourself
>up as Nasi and gather others around you,
>sounds like you are the one in authority,
>rather than under someones authority.

Any three Torah observent persons may under Jewish law establish a beit din as Dt. 16:18 commands (it is addressed to plural "you")


>So again, I ask, under what authority do
>you determine that someone is anti-semetic

If you dont even know what is and is not anti-semitic when you read it you have REAL problems. Dan's Chapter 12 is anti-semitic. His statements that Jews are christ-killers, that we control the world, that we engineered the holocaust and that we are the literal seed of Satan rather than sons of Adam are anti-semitic. I need no more authority to make that acknowledgement than I need special authority to acknowldge that rain is wet.

>Here are some Hebrew and Israel quotes for >you.
>
>Romans 11:1, this is Shaul talkng, " 'I say
>then, has Yahuweh rejected His people? Let
>it not be! For I also am from Yisrael, of
>the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of
>Binyamin.' "

Also from Paul:

"What advantage has the Jew?...
much in every way;
chiefly, because that to them
were committed the oracles of Elohim."
(Rom. 3:1-2)

"Men and brothers, I [Paul] am a Pharisee..."
(Acts 23:6)

"But Paul said, I am a Jew..."
(Acts 21:39)

"I [Paul] am truely a man which is a Jew..."
(Acts 22:3)

"Paul's religion was called "Judaism" (Gal. 1:13-14)
of the "sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5).

"Neither against the JEWISH Law, nor against the Temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all." (Acts 25:8)

"I have done nothing gainst our people OR THE CUSTOMS OF OUR FATHERS." (Acts 28:17)

>Yahuchanan 1:47, Yahusha' saying of
>Nethanel, " 'Yahusha' saw Nethanel
>coming toward Him, and said of him,
>"See, truly a son of Yisrael, in whom
>is no deceit!" ' "

"You know not what you you worship,
we know what we worship,
for salvation is of the Jews."
(Jn. 4:22)

"What advantage has the Jew?...
much in every way;
chiefly, because that to them
were committed the oracles of Elohim."
(Rom. 3:1-2)

"Now those who were scattered after the
persecution that arose over Stephen traveled
as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch,
proclaiming the word to no one but the Jews
only."
(Acts 11:19)
(Up until Acts 11:19 this was almost exclucively a Jewish movement)

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EliYah
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posted 08-28-1999 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for EliYah     Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Forwarded by Request:

"Concerning Dan, and the book Christianity Unmasked, again, Dan was not
approached by James to clarify or question anything. They also have not
met
or spoken to each other." Kathryn

This is a totally inaccurate statement. Dan Chaput was at the named Unity
Conference and even made a presentation as James Trimm did. James did not
have time to confer with Dan about the book he wrote and was passing out
free of charge on the last day of the conference. James read it after Dan
was gone. Dan approached James with the book only too glad to give him
one, so they did meet. James had spoken out against Pete Vacca's talk as
I did in responce to it being read against the anti-Semite slant it
unecessarily took. So Dan was present and aware that his statements in
chapter 12 would be offencive to Roger Norman, Dr. James Trimm and
myself. He choose to be an anti-semite ( or anti-judite if you wish)
instead of bringing Unity to the Body of Messiah.

James believes the feast should be kept at the same time as Elder Pete
Vacca, but I do not and James and I are still freinds and brothers.
Anyone, even if they do not have the same understanding of things ,
which strives to keep the commandments of Yah and has the testimony of
Yahushua the Mashiah, is my brother,or sister even those which don't see
that we should pronounce the Name.

Let me be clear about Elder Pete Vacca's talk. It was against the
Karaite Jews which use the name of YHWH( pronounce it) and use only the
availability of green ears as commanded in Torah to determine the First
month Abib. The Karaite Jews do not consider the Talmud = Oral Torah. So
you could say they are Yahwist Yahudi (Jews), even though they do reject
Messiah and the New Testemant. I do not agree with them about these last
2 matters.

They publically slandered James' people the Jews. Many of the things in
chapter twelve are passed on lies the gentiles learn from their fathers.
If something is done in a public manner it is to be addressed publically
according to the Apostle Paul's instructions to Timothy an
overseer/Bishop.

1 Tim 5:19-20
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or
three witnesses.
20 Them (an elder) that sin rebuke before all, that others also
may fear.

What they did was done and written down so no way could they or are they
denying it.There were ample witnesses. It is time for both of them to
ask forgivness and repent to their brothers and sisters in the Messiah in
addition to clarifying themselves as Pete Vacca has already done. It
takes a big man to say I am sory please forgive me, as Roger Norman
pointed out in the first talk given at the Unity Conference.

Since I was involved in a major way in dealing with and witnessing this
at the Unity Conference, I ask James to copy the conversation on eliyah
forum and forward it to me.I do believe you will find James to be an
humble man of Jewish decent. Consider if the rumors and lies told about
the American Natives, Afro-Americans or any other group of people would
have been spread and went unrebutted or rebuked how would this make us in
the family of Yahueh feel? For what went on at the Unity Conference I
have to say a lot was accomplished for good and believe it or not it was
one of the most orderly and peaceful conferences I personally have
attended. This subject, that has needed to be dealt with for a long time,
has left a different impression in a lot of people's minds that did not
attend. I too think the give and take I have read on this forum is good.
Numbers 6:24-27 to all in the true faith.

In the name of Adonai Yahushua ha Mashiah, Darrell K. Whitfield

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