Subject: Re: Beit Din
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 04:15:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: James Trimm <email@example.com>
To: purnhrt <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>To the members of the Beit Din and the Friends of the Court, last week I
>was sent some forwards, by a friend, of a situation at a forum. A woman
>named [Mrs. H.] was stating that James Trimm was posting under
>another name of Rabbi Yosef and under that name he was speaking about
>the Book of Mormon. For this statement she was accused of slandering,
>lying and lashon hara. Someone demanded proof. She was begging for
>someone to investigate this.
Actually [Mrs. H.] claimed three things:
1. That I rejected Yeshua
2. That I rejected the blood atonement doctrine
3. That I advocated the Book of Mormon
All three are lies.
> I was informed that the [H's] were being
>called to a trial this week, by the Beit Din and involving their Pastor.
> But if he posts information about Mormonism and the Book of
>Mormon by one name and then as James Trimm comes down on [Mrs. H.] or
>anyone else for expressing similar views, and then when they state that
>Trimm and Rabbi Yosef are one and the same, and she is called a liar and
>kicked off the forum and now she and her husband are facing being kicked
>out of their congregation, that is a whole different matter.
Actually all of this is false. The [H's] problem to my knowledge has
NOTHING directly to do with the Book of Mormon. They were removed from the forums for continually posting off topic material on the Nazarene Forum. ***.
Now I cannot read the "evidence" because I am using a macintosh so I do not
know its contents.
I will say that two days ago I conversed with Mike Detwiler (VP of SANJ)
and in that conversation I told him that I indeed HAD participated in
Mormon forums as well as Islamic forums since 1996 sometimes under my own
name and sometimes under pen names. I told him that I had indeed at times posted on such forums under various pen names including "Yosef".
Perhaps this bears some explaining.
I am a scholar of theology. One of my major interests is comparitive
religions. I have done professional research and been published in this area. Among my favorite comparitive religion topics are Islam, Mormonism and Branch Davidianism.
While I have never advocated the Quran I have discussed its meaning
objectively and even taken apart passages and exegeted them in an objective
manner from the Arabic.
I have had many objective discussions about the teachings of David Koresh
on the Branch-Theology list. But I have never advocated the teachings of
In the same way I have objectively discussed the Book of Mormon but never
advocated the book or Mormonism. (Interestingly the Book of Mormon
contradicts Mormonism greatly)
To me this is just research. In fact on my transcript from the Seminary
actually show SPEC (Special) hours for: Mormon Theology; Branch Davidian
Theology; Branch Davidian Publication and Research Advisor.
Before I seperated myself from the Christian community I was a research
consultant for Watchman Fellowship which is the second largest Christian
"anti-cult ministry" in the world. They even published some articles by me
in their journal THE WATCHMAN EXPOSITOR. I did research for them in the
area of Branch Davidianism and Mormonism. In fact it was while working for
them that I initially "infiltrated" various Mormon lists.
My reasearch on the Branch Davidians was actually used by Congress in the
hearings over the Mt. Carmel events. It is also cited in two major books
on the topic WHY WACO? and ASHES OF WACO.
To this day I often am called on as a research consultant by the Reunion
Institute in Houston Texas which is an accademic rather than Christian
Furthermore I am a part of the Religious-Crisis Task Force, a group of
Theology doctrorates who are available as consultants should another "Waco"
type crisis occur. Our goal is that the Feds would call upon us to help
them in negotiations to relate to the "cult" as religious people motivated
by their beliefs rather than as criminals who are generally motivated by
greed and survival. We have often discussed the fact that we might one day
face a radical Polygomous Mormon group in Utah (there are many such groups).
I have also formulated methods of apologetics which involve reaching a
person where they are by intially approaching them with their own sacred
literature. This includes my 10 step approach to reaching Muslims and my
six step method of approaching Mormons. I have used these aproaches to
attempt to bring Muslims and Mormons to the Torah and the true Messiah by
participating on Mormon and Muslim lists. Never in this process do I
advocate the books involved (other than the Bible).
As I have stated repeatedly that I do not advocate the Book of Mormon.
In fact in one conversation with [Mrs. H.] nearly a year ago I even suggested the
possibility that the Book of Mormon might have been DEMONICLY inspired.
I have serious problems with a number of things that are IN the Book of Mormon:
* Certain passages at least appear to be anti-nomian:
"...you must keep the performances
and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled
which was given to Moses."
- 2Nephi 25:30 (supposedly between 559 & 545 BC)
(see also Alma 30:3)
"...but I say to you, that the time
when it shall no more be expedient
to keep the law of Moses."
- Mosiah 13:27 (sopposedly in 148 BC)
"...the law in me is fulfilled,
for I have come to fulfil the law;
therefore it has an end."
- 3Nephi 15:5 (supposedly quoying "Jesus")
[right after the coming of "Christ"]
"And they did not walk anymore after the performances
and ordinances of the law of Moses..."
- 4Nephi 1:12
"...the law of circumcision is done
away in me."
- Moroni 8:8 (supposedly quoting "Jesus")
* The book seems to depict
traditional Christian practices
such as Communion [not Passover?] (3Nephi 20:1-9)
* The Book of Mormon calls the followers
of the religion
it depicts "Christians" supposedly as early as 73 BC
* The BoM people supposedly came
to the New World
and kept the law of Moses (2Ne. 25:24; Jarom 1:5; Mosiah 2:3;
Alma 30:3; 34:14) they supposedly built a Temple "after
the manner of Solomon" (2Ne. 5:16) and made offerings
(1Ne. 5:9; 7:22; Mosiah 2:3) Now how could a group of all
Josephites (1Ne. 15:12; 19:24; 2Ne. 3:2-5; Jacob 2:5 & Alma 26:36)
do that without any Levites? Maybe thay just did it theselves
(1Nephi 2:7) and appointed non-Levites as priests (2Ne. 5:26;
Jacob 1:18) but then who would say that a group of Josephites
who built their own Temple, performed their own offerrings
and appointed their own non-Levitical priests...
"...did observe to keep the judgements,
and the statutes, and the commandments of the Lord
IN ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES"
Even IF the Lord had told them to
do such things would
it not be WAY beyond the realm of truth to say that
they were done "according to the law of Moses"?
* Also why would a group which
kept the law of Moses
in all things build various Temples in various locations:
* "The Land of Nephi" (2Ne. 5:8, 16)
* "The Land of Zarahemla (Mosiah 1:18)
* "the Land Bountiful" (3Nephi 11:1)
And much of this time overlaps The
Second Temple Era.
Compare Deut 12:21; 16:16 which teaches only one Temple
in one chosen place. How does that work?
* While the book is longer
than the NT and is largely narative
it never mentions a Jewish/Biblical holiday by name. It also
never mentions a newmoon convocation, Nazarite vow etc.
This is suspicious.
* Although its people supposedly
kept the Law of Moses until
the time of "Christ" the book places the death of "Christ"
on the "the first month, on the fourth day" (3Ne. 8:5)
though this day would have been Passover, the 14th day
of the month on the Biblical/Jewish calendar. In fact
Passover roughly coresponds with the full moon and would
be within a day of the 15th (on a newmoon based calendar)
or a day of the 1st (on any Fullmoon based calendar) So not only
is this supposed "BoM calendar" not the Biblical newmoon calendar
it could not even be a lunar calendar at all.
So yes I have participated on Mormon and Muslim lists both under my own
name and under pennames so as to objectively discuss the Book of Mormon and
Quran and to use the "for arguments sake" approcah to bring them to Torah and Messiah.
I have also used the same method to research out some of the only first
hand information on the teachings of Koresh. I used this information to publish a number of articles in journals about Branch Davidian Theology, some objective and at least one was a rebutal to Branch Davidian Theology.
It also needs to be said that there was has also been a Mormon who has used
the name "Yosef" (I belierve his name was Kurt Neumiller) and this person
did advocate the Book of Mormon.
OK now with all of this in mind I want to say that this has NOTHING to do
with [Mrs. H's] problems.
[Mrs. H.] is facing problems NOT because she has reasearched the Book
of Mormon. It is not even because she advocates the book (which I do not).
[Mrs. H.] is facing problems for:
2. spamming SANJ lists with offtopic material repeatedly
The facts are clear:
1. [Mrs. H.] was not and has
not been disfellowshipped over the
Book of Mormon.
2. I do NOT advocate the Book of Mormon.
Since both of these things are true, it is clear to see that this has been
a diversionary tactic.
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