9/5 Post 41328 James Trimm

From: James Trimm  <jstrimm@h...>
               Date: Tue Sep 5, 2000 11:42am
               Subject: Re: Sunday or Satuday: Does it matter?
 

               I never said otherwise.  I have never even identified the book in question
               or the ministry that published it.  All I did was quote the material and
               ask people what they thought of the statement.  I did not even express my
               opinion on it until several others had.

               Although the same organization that produced the book in question has
               criticized SANJ and stated that the "fundamental principle" of their
               overall "philosophy" is:

                       ... some of the fundamental differences I see
                       between SANJ and between <his Messianic ministry>.
                       If its ok I'd like to address those at this time.
                       I'd like to show you the philosophy we have developed
                       over the years in teaching Torah...

                       There is a fundamental principle upon which this--
                       all of this stands upon.  The fundamental principle
                       all of this stands upon is number one: our identity.

                       How do we see ourselves before Messiash?
                       Do we see ourselves as righteous individuals?
                       Righteous before him through the blood of Messiah?
                       Do we?-- Thats  a question.

                       Yes-- No-- Do I have any answers?

                       We do?
                       Then is there anything we can do to be more righteous in his sight?
                       Is there any amount of Torah Observance that we can aply to our life
                       that can make us be more righteous in the eyes of Abba?  Is there?

                       No.  So we are fundamnentally, constitutionally righteous before
                       God. Amen?

                       So that means one thing.  That there is nothing that we can do
                       to change our presence, our stand before him.

               SANJ RESPONSE:

               The above logic looks real good on the surface.  However it contains a
               fundamental logic error which makes all of the difference in the world.
               This is the error of EQUIVICATION mentioned on page 23 of my book
               "Hereneutics, How to Undertstand the SCriptures".

               The error of EQUIVICATION occurs when an ambiguous word is used to mean one
               thing in the premis, but something else in the conclusion.  Two examples
               taken from my book:

                       A record is an album of music.
                       The criminal had a record.
                       Therefore the criminal had an album of music.

                       All stars are energized by fusion.
                       Tom Cruise is a big star.
                       Therefore Tom Cruise is energized by fusion.

               Now the concept behind the word "righteous" in the Scriptures is the Hebrew
               word TZADIK.

               There is a common misunderstanding that pits James 2:18 against Rom. 4:1-5;
               Gal. 3:6-9

               The problem here is misunderstanding the Semitic text.  The Hebrew and
               Aramaic word TZADAKA (Just/Righteous) is an ambiguous word with many
               meanings.  This word can mean "to display righteousness" and it can mean be
               a synanumn for "salvation."
 

               For example Jn. 7:29 "the people... and the publicans justified God, being
               immersed with the immersion of Yochanan."
               Here it is clear that TZADAKA refers to a "display of righteousness" and NOT
               salvation, since the people clearly were not bring salvation to God.
               Amother example of this usage is in Isaiah 32:17 "work of righteousness
 

               When Paul says Abraham was justified by faith (Rom. 4:1-5; Gal. 3:6-9) he
               speaks in the context of "salvation" and refers to Gen. 15:6.  This is the
               same usage as in Psalm 71:15 where TZADAKA is used in poetic paralleism
               as a synonymn for "Salvation" (YESHUA).
 

               When Ya'akov (James) says that Abraham was justified by works he speaks in
               context of a display of righteousness (James 2:18) and refers to an event
               in Gen. 22 which took place many years AFTER Abraham had ALREADY been
               justified by faith (in Gen. 15:6).

               In the Hebrew/Aramaic there is absolutely NO conflict between Paul and
               Ya'akov here.

               Ok now that we understand the two ambiguous words here and properly understand
               what Ya'akov and Paul are saying we can also see the clear error in the
               statement
               I quoted above.

               In the premiss the speaker uses "Righteous" as a synonymn for Salvation:

                       Do we see ourselves as righteous individuals?
                       Righteous before him through the blood of Messiah?
 

               But in the conclusion the speaker uses the word Righteousness to refer to a
               display of righteousness or righteous deeds:

                       Then is there anything we can do to be more righteous in his sight?
                       Is there any amount of Torah Observance that we can aply to our life
                       that can make us be more righteous in the eyes of Abba?  Is there?

                       No.  So we are fundamnentally, constitutionally righteous before
                       God. Amen?

                       So that means one thing.  That there is nothing that we can do
                       to change our presence, our stand before him.

               Now the truth is this.  We do see ourselves as righteous (saved) individuals.
               Hoiwever we can also be more righteous (display of good deeds) than we are
               right now if we become more Torah Observant.  This is CLEARLY taught in the
               Scriptures:

                       And it will be righteousness for us if we are
                       careful to observe all this commandment
                       before YHHW our Elohim, just as he commanded us.
                       (Deut. 6:25)

                       ...if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances
                       so as to deal faithfully-- he is righteous...
                       (Ezek. 18:9)

                       ...it is those who obey the Torah
                       who will be declared righteous.
                       (Rom. 2:13-- WOW! You mean Paul said THAT?!?!)

               Now I ask you again:

                       ...is there anything we can do to be more righteous in his sight?
                       Is there any amount of Torah Observance that we can aply to our life
                       that can make us be more righteous in the eyes of Abba?  Is there?

               YES!  The "fundamental principle" of the "philosophy" of many in the
               Messianic movement is based on a totaly false idea.

                       ...sin is the transgression of the Torah...
                       ...let no man decieve you.
                       he that does righteousness is righteous,
                       even as he is righteous.
                       He that commits sin [transgression of the Torah]
                       is of the devil...
                       (1Yochanan 3:4, 7-8)

               Let no man decieve you.

               James Trimm
 
 
 

               >To take a paragraph out of a book that has been used to turn around
               >hundreds of people to Torah submission is unfair.  I agree, the statement
               >could have been written more clearly, however, the book has accomplised a
               >good work . . .  probably reaching far more "christians" with the truth
               >than all of it's critics combined.
               >Michael
               >
               >
               >
               >At 11:51 AM 9/5/00 -0500, you wrote:
               >>
               >>Again we are talking about the statement in the book about becoming as
               >>involved as one desires.
               >>
               >>>Again, my experience is that I was NOT there worshipping with them.  I was
               >>>there teaching them truth.
               >>>Just that simple.
               >>>Michael
               >>>
               >>>
               >>>At 11:41 PM 9/4/00 -0500, you wrote:
               >>>>> Again, taken out of context.  I am not saying that we would believe as
               >>>>>they believe,
               >>>>>that we would practice as they practice, that we would follow after their
               >>>>>customs.
               >>>>
               >>>>Isn't Sunday worship one of their customs/practices?
               >>>>
               >>>>
               >>>>
               >>>>
               >>>>Study Torah with SANJ Mitvah Club
               >>>>http://www.nazarene.net/MitzvahClub.htm
               >>>>
               >>>>
               >>>>This list provided by SANJ sponsors: http://www.nazarene.net
               >>>>SANJ is a non-profit organization
               >>>
               >>>
               >>>This list provided by SANJ sponsors: http://www.nazarene.net
               >>>SANJ is a non-profit organization
               >>
               >>
               >>
               >>
               >>Study Torah with SANJ Mitvah Club
               >>http://www.nazarene.net/MitzvahClub.htm
               >>
               >>
               >>This list provided by SANJ sponsors: http://www.nazarene.net
               >>SANJ is a non-profit organization
               >
               >
               >This list provided by SANJ sponsors: http://www.nazarene.net
               >SANJ is a non-profit organization
 
 
 

               Study Torah with SANJ Mitvah Club
               http://www.nazarene.net/MitzvahClub.htm
 

               This list provided by SANJ sponsors: http://www.nazarene.net
               SANJ is a non-profit organization
 

 
                    Replies
                                                             Author
                                                                                 Date
               41329
                                             Re: Sunday or Satuday: Does it
                    matter?
                                                             James Trimm
                                                                                 Tue 9/5/2000
               41331
                                             Re: Sunday or Satuday: Does it
                    matter?
                                                             James Trimm
                                                                                 Tue 9/5/2000